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TOPIC: Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many

Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 17:09 #1

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This is a serious subject:So Troll at your peril.
I personally have no emnity against Jewish folk whatsoever, same as I have no prejudice against any group in general.
However I do believe the Israeli's do deserve some of the growing resentment against them for their appalling treatment of the Palestinian peoples and general aggressive stance in the Middle East.
Are Jews around the world, unfairly, receiving the blowback from Israel's foreign policy?

A British Jew's perspective: mondoweiss.net/2014/03/rapidly-shifting-opinion.html
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 17:17 #2

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Wise Haven wrote:
This is a serious subject:So Troll at your peril.
I personally have no emnity against Jewish folk whatsoever, same as I have no prejudice against any group in general.
However I do believe the Israeli's do deserve some of the growing resentment against them for their appalling treatment of the Palestinian peoples and general aggressive stance in the Middle East.
Are Jews around the world, unfairly, receiving the blowback from Israel's foreign policy?

A British Jew's perspective: mondoweiss.net/2014/03/rapidly-shifting-opinion.html

No.

They're unfairly receiving the blowback from anti-Semitism and general racism. Most joo bashers don't understand Zionism, nor the fact that there are plenty of Jewish people against it. Those that do understand Zionism are not racist towards the Jews, they're usually just anti-zionist. The former, are just biggoted idiots with fresh air between their ears.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 17:27 #3

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That's pretty much my take too SR.
What does amaze me, especially in the AM, is how many commenters and theorists do not differentiate between Jew and Zionist in their condemnations of Zionism.
One would be forgiven for thinking that a lot of that criticism is designed to invite the "Anti-Semitic" label in order to discredit the AM.
The Icke forum is a case in point. Those few rabid anti-jew posters have tarred all alternative thinkers with the same brush.
Poisoned the well, so to speak.
The fact they were given free reign to do so alerted me a subtle sub-plot underlying certain AM personalities. The result being that they discredit the subject purely by their association with it.
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Last Edit: 01 Apr 2014 17:29 by Wise Haven.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 17:47 #4

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Wise Haven wrote:
That's pretty much my take too SR.
What does amaze me, especially in the AM, is how many commenters and theorists do not differentiate between Jew and Zionist in their condemnations of Zionism.
One would be forgiven for thinking that a lot of that criticism is designed to invite the "Anti-Semitic" label in order to discredit the AM.
The Icke forum is a case in point. Those few rabid anti-jew posters have tarred all alternative thinkers with the same brush.
Poisoned the well, so to speak.
The fact they were given free reign to do so alerted me a subtle sub-plot underlying certain AM personalities. The result being that they discredit the subject purely by their association with it.

Bang on mate, I also noticed that whilst in the above link an initial distinction was made, the wording made the two subtly flow together anyway. Its something I see a lot on the web and on a personal level it makes my blood boil, especially as it comes from supposed "Jews".

Its all a ploy, an intentional muddying of the waters and blurring of the lines. The Zionists don't want the distinction to be made, for then they can claim anti-semitism. The more the distinction is pushed, the more the attempts to bury it.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 17:55 #5

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Yes. I've read many articles that start with the distinction then descend into obvious anti-semitism. It's a great way to discredit any serious AM subject. That, along with UFO's, Lizards and homophobia. An excellent hatchet job was done by the so called IMF whistle blower who suddenly went all bat shit crazy about "aliens walk among us" after addressing the very real, serious subject of International banksterism.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:04 #6

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I tend to avoid even the anti_zionist label as it tends to lead to presumptions. I'm against all nations, particularly aggressive ones!
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:08 #7

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oioioi wrote:
I tend to avoid even the anti_zionist label as it tends to lead to presumptions. I'm against all nations, particularly aggressive ones!
Yup,not a subject I ever go near,as both sides are equally "vociferous" and things quickly descend into heated mud slinging. :hide:
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:11 #8

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I think people generally favour simple explanations for things which is why the idea that there is one very small group of people manipulating everything is very seductive. In my opinion, the reality is a bit more complex and the situation a bit more shifting and amorphous than that.

I think it also feeds into a general human tendency to scapegoat people when dealing with complicated or nuanced problems. It’s much easier to blame a group, a nation, or a handful of families than attempt to fully understand a complex issue. Especially when these people or groups do have genuine power and influence.

So I think consequently you get people saying “it’s Israel / the Jews / Zionism / the Rothschilds” who are pulling all the strings, when the reality is that, in my opinion, the power structure is constantly shifting, but the themes and goals that underpin it remain the same.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:17 #9

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Same here too Oi - I have mainly shied away from the topic mainly because some people seem incable of seeing the difference between Race and (arguably) religion and a political ideology. It gets to be a tiresome subject to discuss but SZ is the place where it shouldn't be a pain to discuss thankfully.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:20 #10

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Jiggly Bitz. wrote:
oioioi wrote:
I tend to avoid even the anti_zionist label as it tends to lead to presumptions. I'm against all nations, particularly aggressive ones!
Yup,not a subject I ever go near,as both sides are equally "vociferous" and things quickly descend into heated mud slinging. :hide:

Already, on this thread, there is evidence of people experiencing their real rational debate being shut down by politically motivated change agents. It seems we have capitulated after a war of attrition on free speech. Very insidious.

ETA: To clarify, this thread hasn't been a victim of that pressure just our collective experience elswhere on the net.
My Rights End Where Yours Begin so give me space FFS
Last Edit: 01 Apr 2014 18:23 by Wise Haven.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:26 #11

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I've been a part of a 'red and black/no state line' between pro and anti zionists, I don't shy away from it ;)
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Last Edit: 01 Apr 2014 18:27 by oioioi.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:31 #12

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Both oi's and wub's post have merit but I get the feeling that you don't really look at anti-Zionism for what it actually is because of its close ties with anti-Semitism. Zionism is merely a subcategory of the issue at large yes, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in its own right and isn't a large chunk of the problem, and hence deserves its own chapter. Its the middle-eastern arm of the west, set up by the west after WW2 as we all know.

The very same people pulling the strings before WW2 are pulling them afterwards and now have a foot in the door in the middle east via their creation. In order to fully understand what's going on here (I'm not suggesting that you two don't, I'm talking general public), Zionism needs to be recognised in its own right to understand who's pulling the strings. If you take Zionism out of the equation, you lose the big picture, which is exactly what the Zionists and its puppet masters want.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:48 #13

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SilvaRizla wrote:
Both oi's and wub's post have merit but I get the feeling that you don't really look at anti-Zionism for what it actually is because of its close ties with anti-Semitism. Zionism is merely a subcategory of the issue at large yes, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in its own right and isn't a large chunk of the problem, and hence deserves its own chapter. Its the middle-eastern arm of the west, set up by the west after WW2 as we all know.

The very same people pulling the strings before WW2 are pulling them afterwards and now have a foot in the door in the middle east via their creation. In order to fully understand what's going on here (I'm not suggesting that you two don't, I'm talking general public), Zionism needs to be recognised in its own right to understand who's pulling the strings. If you take Zionism out of the equation, you lose the big picture, which is exactly what the Zionists and its puppet masters want.

You've touched on some very interesting points there. I would urge everyone to read up on the history of Zionism to understand the whole cloth. Most modern writing on the subject tend to simplify the relationship between the main protagonists and as a result their readership draw simplistic conclusions. This dumbing down lends itself to the black and white positions we see expressed by the bigot and the agitator.
Zionism, when put into context by examining it's (genuine) historical roots and contemporary expression presents a much more complex pitcure than we are usually presented with. Especially in the MSM.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 18:59 #14

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Wise Haven wrote:
Jiggly Bitz. wrote:
oioioi wrote:
I tend to avoid even the anti_zionist label as it tends to lead to presumptions. I'm against all nations, particularly aggressive ones!
Yup,not a subject I ever go near,as both sides are equally "vociferous" and things quickly descend into heated mud slinging. :hide:

Already, on this thread, there is evidence of people experiencing their real rational debate being shut down by politically motivated change agents. It seems we have capitulated after a war of attrition on free speech. Very insidious.

ETA: To clarify, this thread hasn't been a victim of that pressure just our collective experience elswhere on the net.
Sorry WH,did I say say something offensive there,if so you have my apologies. :conf:
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 19:27 #15

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Jiggly Bitz. wrote:
Wise Haven wrote:
Jiggly Bitz. wrote:
oioioi wrote:
I tend to avoid even the anti_zionist label as it tends to lead to presumptions. I'm against all nations, particularly aggressive ones!
Yup,not a subject I ever go near,as both sides are equally "vociferous" and things quickly descend into heated mud slinging. :hide:

Already, on this thread, there is evidence of people experiencing their real rational debate being shut down by politically motivated change agents. It seems we have capitulated after a war of attrition on free speech. Very insidious.

ETA: To clarify, this thread hasn't been a victim of that pressure just our collective experience elswhere on the net.
Sorry WH,did I say say something offensive there,if so you have my apologies. :conf:

No mate - nothing whatsover. I made the mistake of trying to type that post and hold a conversation at the same time and probably didnt express myself very well. Everybodys response on this thread so far has been reasonable as I would expect of SZ. What I meant was that we all seemed to have experienced, elsewhere (not on this thread or forum), the closing down of debate or discussion on the subject of zionism by insincere means - whether by advocates, detractors or agitators.
:sorry: for the confusion.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 19:36 #16

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Wise Haven wrote:
Jiggly Bitz. wrote:
Wise Haven wrote:
Jiggly Bitz. wrote:
oioioi wrote:
I tend to avoid even the anti_zionist label as it tends to lead to presumptions. I'm against all nations, particularly aggressive ones!
Yup,not a subject I ever go near,as both sides are equally "vociferous" and things quickly descend into heated mud slinging. :hide:

Already, on this thread, there is evidence of people experiencing their real rational debate being shut down by politically motivated change agents. It seems we have capitulated after a war of attrition on free speech. Very insidious.

ETA: To clarify, this thread hasn't been a victim of that pressure just our collective experience elswhere on the net.
Sorry WH,did I say say something offensive there,if so you have my apologies. :conf:

No mate - nothing whatsover. I made the mistake of trying to type that post and hold a conversation at the same time and probably didnt express myself very well. Everybodys response on this thread so far has been reasonable as I would expect of SZ. What I meant was that we all seemed to have experienced, elsewhere (not on this thread or forum), the closing down of debate or discussion on the subject of zionism by insincere means - whether by advocates, detractors or agitators.
:sorry: for the confusion.
Thank goodness for that,I was really upset there for a while that I'd ineloquently bungled what was an attempt to state neutrality on the subject.I'm not at all religious.Whenever I've seen debates on other forums I've sat squirming at the vicious nature of some of the attacks on posters and been amazed at the lack of empathy some people have toward their fellow man. :( :thumbup:
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 19:40 #17

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Wise Haven wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
Both oi's and wub's post have merit but I get the feeling that you don't really look at anti-Zionism for what it actually is because of its close ties with anti-Semitism. Zionism is merely a subcategory of the issue at large yes, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in its own right and isn't a large chunk of the problem, and hence deserves its own chapter. Its the middle-eastern arm of the west, set up by the west after WW2 as we all know.

The very same people pulling the strings before WW2 are pulling them afterwards and now have a foot in the door in the middle east via their creation. In order to fully understand what's going on here (I'm not suggesting that you two don't, I'm talking general public), Zionism needs to be recognised in its own right to understand who's pulling the strings. If you take Zionism out of the equation, you lose the big picture, which is exactly what the Zionists and its puppet masters want.

You've touched on some very interesting points there. I would urge everyone to read up on the history of Zionism to understand the whole cloth. Most modern writing on the subject tend to simplify the relationship between the main protagonists and as a result their readership draw simplistic conclusions. This dumbing down lends itself to the black and white positions we see expressed by the bigot and the agitator.
Zionism, when put into context by examining it's (genuine) historical roots and contemporary expression presents a much more complex pitcure than we are usually presented with. Especially in the MSM.

Whilst this is true, there is also a simplistic version that covers enough bases for me...

Turn two peoples against each other by giving away Arab land that you claim to own to some wannabe nationals and watch them too and fro for the next 100 years completely destabilising the region for obvious benefits.
Last Edit: 01 Apr 2014 19:45 by SilvaRizla.
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 20:13 #18

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SilvaRizla wrote:
Wise Haven wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
Both oi's and wub's post have merit but I get the feeling that you don't really look at anti-Zionism for what it actually is because of its close ties with anti-Semitism. Zionism is merely a subcategory of the issue at large yes, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in its own right and isn't a large chunk of the problem, and hence deserves its own chapter. Its the middle-eastern arm of the west, set up by the west after WW2 as we all know.

The very same people pulling the strings before WW2 are pulling them afterwards and now have a foot in the door in the middle east via their creation. In order to fully understand what's going on here (I'm not suggesting that you two don't, I'm talking general public), Zionism needs to be recognised in its own right to understand who's pulling the strings. If you take Zionism out of the equation, you lose the big picture, which is exactly what the Zionists and its puppet masters want.

You've touched on some very interesting points there. I would urge everyone to read up on the history of Zionism to understand the whole cloth. Most modern writing on the subject tend to simplify the relationship between the main protagonists and as a result their readership draw simplistic conclusions. This dumbing down lends itself to the black and white positions we see expressed by the bigot and the agitator.
Zionism, when put into context by examining it's (genuine) historical roots and contemporary expression presents a much more complex pitcure than we are usually presented with. Especially in the MSM.

Whilst this is true, there is also a simplistic version that covers enough bases for me...

Turn two peoples against each other by giving away Arab land that you claim to own to some wannabe nationals and watch them too and fro for the next 100 years completely destabilising the region for obvious benefits.
Absolutley - The plan, in fact any plan worth it's salt, will be KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.
Why KISS - Same as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. A plan is vulnerable to failure if it can't be carried out by its lowest IQ participant.
The vast majority of these plans require the participation of the masses who, though intelligent, may be ignorant or easily manipulated due to their ignorance, naivety or world view.
One of the greatest advantages we have is that these plans are "very simplistic" once pointed out. However, the simplistic nature of the deception that we are being subjected to tends to work against us because the duped expect an "Evil Genius" plan of great machination before they will even consider they have been conned by the simplest "Bait and Switch". :D
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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 23:41 #19

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Is it the JOOS? or Israel that invites the ire of so many 01 Apr 2014 23:53 #20

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The Hidden History of Zionism

In his 1988 book, Ralph Schoenman explained four Zionist myths:

– the notion of "A land without people for a people without a land" to promote the fiction that an empty Palestine was there for the taking by its rightful original inhabitants;

– Israeli democracy, the only "real" one in the Middle East; in fact, Israel is democratic like South Africa was apartheid and much worse; "Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights" apply only for Jews;

– "security (is) the motor force of Israeli foreign policy" because it’s surrounded by hostile Arab states; and

– "Zionism (is) the moral legatee of the victims of the Holocaust… the most pervasive and insidious of the" Zionist myths; in fact, Zionists, like future prime minister Yitzhak Shamir, openly colluded with the Nazis for their own purposes – to use persecution as justification for a future Zionist state and more.

It wasn’t just to colonize Palestine. It was also to exploit indigenous people as cheap labor, dispossess and disperse them, replace them with arriving Jews, legitimize ethnic cleansing, and remove Palestinians from their land and history. Historical records were falsified. "Palestinians were re-invented as a semi-savage, nomadic remnant." Mass elimination methods were justified for a "people too many."

In 1923, hard line revisionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky argued that Arab nationalists opposed a Jewish state and wouldn’t accept one. Thus peaceful coexistence was unattainable, and Jews had to build "an iron wall of (superior) Jewish military force." The idea was to discourage Arab hopes of destroying Israel followed by a negotiated settlement giving Israel the upper hand to dictate terms.

Terror was to be used the way Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department, wrote in 1940:


Between ourselves, it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to (get rid of) all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.

The secret Koenig Report, later published in 1976, said: "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-Election of Tel Aviv mayor Shlomo Lahat (1974-1993) stated: "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."

Former IDF Chief of Staff Raphael Eitan (1978-1983) said:


We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel…. Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.

Other Israeli leaders voiced similar extremism, including David Ben Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, saying in 1937 that "We must expel the Arabs and take their place and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places – then we have force at our disposal."

At inception, Zionists like Herzl were pragmatic, yet devious, in believing imperial power backing was needed to establish a Jewish state. It could have been anywhere, but Palestine was chosen for its symbolic significance as the ancient Jewish homeland. Colonization began after the first Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland in 1897. Herzl later wrote:

"At Basel, I founded the Jewish state…. If not in five years, then certainly in fifty everyone will realize it." It took 51 by dispossessing indigenous Palestinians and replacing them with Jews. Ever since, Zionism’s most effective legitimacy claim is the notion of preventing another "Holocaust." It’s justified the most outrageous crimes, characterized as "self-defense" by a tiny Jewish minority surrounded by hordes of hostile Arabs. It seized Palestinian land, Judaized it, created a new nation for Jews alone — undemocratic, imperial, militant, violent, exploitative, oppressive, racist, and hostile to core Judaic dogma.

It’s why growing thousands of Jews globally oppose an ideology based on power, conquest, dispossession, and violation of the most fundamental Jewish ethical and moral teachings, ones Zionists disdain.

Not In My Name

It calls itself a "predominantly Jewish organization deeply committed to a peaceful and just resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, a resolution that will provide safety, security and freedom for Jews, Palestinians, and all others living in this region." It opposes:

– the illegal West Bank and Gaza occupations;
– the West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements;
– Israel’s Separation Wall;
– the collective punishment of millions of Occupied Palestinians and Israeli Arabs; and
– Israeli human rights abuses, home demolitions, land seizures, arbitrary arrests, torture, travel and movement restrictions, and closure and encirclements of villages and communities.

It champions Palestinian self-determination, the right of return, and "full equality, civil rights and economic justice for all." It’s for a shared Jerusalem and nuclear-free Middle East. It wants an end to violence and injustice and the equitable sharing of vital resources, including water, oil, gas, electric power, and all other essentials to life and well-being. It wants all US aid stopped until Israel ends its occupation and acts like a civilized state.

It deplores Zionism and what it represents. It’s activists have chapters around the world. They organize protests and demonstrations, hold vigils and religious ceremonies, communicate with the media, foster dialogue between Jews and Palestinians, sponsor teach-ins, educational forums and study groups.

They believe that moral human beings are obligated "to speak out and take action." They refuse to remain silent or accept Israeli crimes passively. They’re one among other like-minded organizations that say "Not In My Name." Not now or ever.
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What is going on when it comes to 9-11 I…

The EPA (environmental protection agency) and OSHA took air samples in the days following September 11th, they reported that they found no excessive levels of asbestos contrary to other findings....

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9-11 Eleven Years Later

9-11 Eleven Years Later

With the anniversary of September 11th literally just around the corner, unanswered questions still remain for families who lost loved ones during the tragic event, as well as from families...

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Strange Noises, Possible Link to Mass An…

Strange Noises, Possible Link to Mass Animal Deaths

In 2008 the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to review a series of lower court rulings that restrict the United States Navy's use of sonar in submarine detection training exercises off...

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