G'day Dogsmilk.
dogsmilk wrote:
I agree 100%.
dogsmilk wrote:
Interestingly, cyber-space is the one place that has the ability to 'create a space' for everyone, which would then leave it up to the individual as to which environment they choose to interact with others upon. Which is one reason why I am pretty much against any bannings upon a forum. On the IL forum, The Toilet has worked out well in restricting individuals without impinging upon their freedom of speech.

If someone promotes "shagging donkeys", they more than likely would not have been invited over, especially for a Sunday dinner.

I think the key word is "forced", which implies physical action. Physical action is not a part of freedom of speech. In fact, it is a whole other ball park. While I can see some interaction between the two (such as verbally making physical threats), I also see little to suggest that verbal self-expression can be "forced" upon another individual except in extreme instances. Because some may act in such a manner, which in no way, shape or form do I condone, I also see little reason to set up 'laws' that will only inhibit the freedom of speech of those willing to abide by such 'laws'.

I AM ALL I AM wrote:
Hi, nice to meet you.
It is good that you said it as I can know more about you.

andyh wrote:
G'day Andyh.

Yeah, and the whole ownership of land (the Earth) is completely ridiculous to me.

Firstly, how can anyone claim ownership of something that was here way before them, and will still be here way after them ?

Secondly, we are the ones getting a free ride on planet Earth as it traverses space, not the other way around.

Free speech is the ability to use your mouth to form words without being arrested.

thoreau wrote:
G'day Thoreau.

It's all good sunshine ... though I am wondering where the "m" fits into the abbreviation.

Call me anything you like, just don't call me late for dinner.

I AM ALL I AM wrote:

IMO freedom of speech is:

Saying whatever you want.... period! Be it horrible trolling, racism, or any other "isum" or anything no matter how negative, perverse or harmfull. We should be free to say (or type) whatever we like.

The responsibility part of freedom of speech comes with not being offended by what other people say (or type).

If someone says something I don’t agree with, or that was intended to insult me, then I just re-evaluate my opinion of them.

There is a flip side to that coin ….there are some aspect’s of freedom of speech that are hard to square… such as:

• What if someone some creepy pervert was offering a child sex? Should that be permitted?
• What if someone was urging a person with learning difficulties, to undertake a violent crime?

See when you have to take vulnerable people into consideration, people who are not equipped with discernment and sound judgement then the issue becomes harder to deal with.

Tufftee wrote:
I agree with you personally, say what you like to me, I'll accept it as a well observed fact or dismiss it as a poor judgement.

Now, my past analogy for proving my point about responsibility was "do we allow paedos on the Blue Peter(a kids show) forum?". I admit I was using the paedo example for 'shock value',I don't even know if Blue Peter has a forum, but let's say we take the shock value out of it, a better example to illustrate the point would be "should an adult female (aged 18+, for legal reasons!) be subjected to the perverted rants of an adult male (aged 18+, for legal reasons!) or does this infringe one of her other fundamental freedoms?"

dogsmilk wrote:

Tufftee wrote:
G'day Tufftee.

Thank you for the reasoned response.

You present a couple of tough questions, which is great to see. I personally wouldn't know how I'd deal with either situation until I was faced with it.

On the free forum that the IL forum started out on, as an admin, I took on the task of responding to an individual that had joined the forum and started a thread that was basically pedophilia approval. It even turned out to be a decent thread, all things considered.

Personally, I believe that engaging in a dialogue is the most beneficial avenue available, even if it can be 'uncomfortable' in relationship to the topic, or the views held by those discussing the topic. Ultimately, if we cannot have a reasoned discussion about a topic, then we are left with few alternatives ... physical action or ignoring the issue (which merely creates ignorance). If we are to get ourselves out of the mess that is the societal structure that is in place, then an open dialogue on all issues, and hence a freedom of speech, is the only avenue I see available that doesn't include physical force.

G'day.

Considering some of the responses, this below may be something worth adding to the discussion ...

The Art of Not Being Offended
By Dr. Jodi Prinzivalli

There is an ancient and well-kept secret to happiness which the Great Ones have known for centuries. They rarely talk about it, but they use it all the time, and it is fundamental to good mental health. This secret is called The Fine Art of Not Being Offended. In order to truly be a master of this art, one must be able to see that every statement, action and reaction of another human being is the sum result of their total life experience to date.

In other words, the majority of people in our world say and do what they do from their own set of fears, conclusions, defenses and attempts to survive. Most of it, even when aimed directly at us, has nothing to do with us. Usually, it has more to do with all the other times, and in particular the first few times, that this person experienced a similar situation, usually when they were young.

Yes, this is psychodynamic. But let’s face it, we live in a world where psychodynamics are what make the world go around. An individual who wishes to live successfully in the world as a spiritual person really needs to understand that psychology is as spiritual as prayer. In fact, the word psychology literally means the study of the soul.

All of that said, almost nothing is personal. Even with our closest loved ones, our beloved partners, our children and our friends. We are all swimming in the projections and filters of each other’s life experiences and often we are just the stand-ins, the chess pieces of life to which our loved ones have their own built-in reactions. This is not to dehumanize life or take away the intimacy from our relationships, but mainly for us to know that almost every time we get offended, we are actually just in a misunderstanding.

A true embodiment of this idea actually allows for more intimacy and less suffering throughout all of our relationships. When we know that we are just the one who happens to be standing in the right place at the right psychodynamic time for someone to say or do what they are doing—we don’t have to take life personally. If it weren’t us, it would likely be someone else.

This frees us to be a little more detached from the reactions of people around us. How often do we react to a statement of another by being offended rather than seeing that the other might actually be hurting? In fact, every time we get offended, it is actually an opportunity to extend kindness to one who may be suffering—even if they themselves do not appear that way on the surface. All anger, all acting out, all harshness, all criticism, is in truth a form of suffering. When we provide no Velcro for it to stick, something changes in the world. We do not even have to say a thing. In fact, it is usually better not to say a thing.

People who are suffering on the inside, but not showing it on the outside, are usually not keen on someone pointing out to them that they are suffering. We do not have to be our loved one’s therapist. We need only understand the situation and move on. In the least, we ourselves experience less suffering and at best, we have a chance to make the world a better place.

This is also not to be confused with allowing ourselves to be hurt, neglected or taken advantage of. True compassion does not allow harm to ourselves either. But when we know that nothing is personal, a magical thing happens. Many of the seeming abusers of the world start to leave our lives. Once we are conscious, so-called abuse can only happen if we believe what the other is saying. When we know nothing is personal, we also do not end up feeling abused. We can say, “Thank you for sharing,” and move on. We are not hooked by what another does or says, since we know it is not about us.

When we know that our inherent worth is not determined by what another says, does or believes, we can take the world a little less seriously. And if necessary, we can just walk away without creating more misery for ourselves or having to convince the other person that we are good and worthy people.

The great challenge of our world is to live a life of contentment, regardless of what other people do, say, think or believe. The fine art of not being offended is one of the many skills for being a practical mystic. Though it may take a lifetime of practice, it is truly one of the best kept secrets for living a happy life.

Tufftee wrote:

You have made very good points.
I agree that freedom of speech means that we are not censored what we want to say. Being politically correct was designed to keep us under control. No hate speech serves the same purpose. So, rather than encouraging people to learn how to communicate in a manner that resolves problems and conflicts a result of which people are getting closer to each other, darlings who control us created no hate speech.
An important aspect of being independent individual is having a well defined self. People who have strong sense of self don’t control others or attempt to change and mold them to meet their needs.
Moreover, they don’t react to others behaviors but exercise the freedom of choice with whom they want to associate.
Finally, we need to have a clearly defined bottom line what we don’t accept no matter what. Otherwise, we will be forced to accept more abusive behaviors or crimes like you have mentioned about creepy pervert for example.

You have freedom of speech but that does not free you from the repercussions of what you say.

One solution to this is ‘morality zones’.

I think I first heard the idea proposed on a David Gorman radio show…

Basically you have different zones/territories where different moral values are applied.

For example if your offended by swearing, then your going to want to spend your time in a zone where swearing is not permitted. If you’re not offended by what people say then you can go to morality zones where there is freedom to say anything.


Venerable people, such as children, or people with learning difficulties would be restricted from entering zones without moral controls until they have developed some level of discernment.

On a side note: the original proposal for morality zones was a solution to crime. If people murdered for example, they would be sent to a morality zone where murder was permitted, however they might become a victim of murder in such a zone. If people took drugs, again there is a morality zone for that.

I AM ALL I AM wrote:

Tufftee wrote:
G'day Tufftee.

'Morality zones' sounds like an interesting idea ... it would definitely beat individuals grouped together based upon money (who can afford such and such a house in such and such an area).

Oh, and props for the Steve Hughes video, he's got some great material.

andyh wrote:
G'day Andyh.

Thanks for the video mate, it's got a great message.

Sorry for the delay in a response - a well needed break from forum was needed - and in answer to the why the 'm' the truth is that my lack of sleep coupled with lack of oxygen to the brain leads to spelling mistakes and the odd cognitive blip in abbreviating I am all I am - I saying it out loud to remind me of the first letters the am turned into an 'm'. Apologies and please excuse me if I make the same mistake in the future

A lot of what you said resonated with me - the idea of empowerment through 'owning' our actions, words and other expressions is one I very much agree with. I am aware that the way in which I present mysef, my thoughts and my actions are a reflection of me - and with this in mind I endeavor to accurately portray myself in words and deeds as a reflection of the 'inside me' and the way I would like to be treated.

You asked why people should care if they offend another person - and suggest that offense is the beginnings of censorship.
If someone says something I find offensive then I will say so - not to shut them up or prevent them from saying it again but in order for them to know how what they have said effects me. Part of 'owning' what you say is recognising the effect it may or may not have on others and in understanding your reasons for wanting to say what you do.

People say and do things for many many different reasons - for attention, for the shock value, to manipulate, to establish common ground, to communicate, to understand, to show love, friendship etc etc - to know why is to know yourself and allows someone to accurately present themselves.

You sayClaiming to be offended is part of self expression and as such how can it be a pathway to censorship of an others self expression? I very much care if I offend someone - I am of the belief that if I offend it is because I have neglected to communicate effectively - as a person I have no wish to offend anyone as I do not think it is very nice - so I care very much if someone is offended by anything I say - I am of the belief that anything can be discussed with anyone so long as there is a mutual respect of the others persons right to an opinion and a respect of each others feelings.

G'day Thoreau.

Thanks for the reply.
thoreau wrote:
There's nothing to apologise about, especially the spelling of the abbreviation. Actually, I was stirring you about it and as such was doing so jokingly ... no harm, no foul.

[more stirring]Remember to take some breaths in between and during posting.[end of stirring]
thoreau wrote:
I've written poetry with a lot of differing ideas in relation to self-expression (among other ideas), here's one that may "resonate" with you ...

MY WORDS

MY WORDS ARE EXPRESSED,
WITH REASON AND RHYME,
A LOVE THAT'S CONFESSED,
THROUGH RHYTHM AND TIME.

MY WORDS ARE A GIFT,
A TRUTH THAT IS ME,
WITH A MESSAGE TO UPLIFT,
FOR ALL ETERNALLY.

MY WORDS ARE ALWAYS CLEAR,
WHETHER YOU LISTEN OR NOT,
THEY SHOW MY MIND HERE,
THE ONE THAT LOVE BEGOT.

MY WORDS I CONFIDE,
ARE ALL WRITTEN FOR ME,
FOR THE JOY I FOUND INSIDE,
HAS SET MY LOVE FREE.


thoreau wrote:
I comprehend why you wouldn't care to offend someone else .. and it shows an empathy for others that is a worthy trait/characteristic.

In fact, I utilise language in a way as to be least offensive while conveying the communication that I desire to share ... sometimes I don't, as can be done unintentionally because a lack of comprehension of how the other will interpret what I state, or because I recognise that some individuals 'require' a form of bluntness that precludes a 'civil' or 'respectful' communication.

Disagreeing with an individuals self-expression is perfectly reasonable, as is having your own self-expression disagreed with. After all, our self-expression IN RELATIONSHIP to another individuals self-expression is part of what we are here to experience, and is that which forms the basis for interpersonal relationships.

Being offended by something though, is truly a subjective matter. What may offend you may not offend others. Conversely, what may offend others may not offend you. As being offended is subjective, how can it be a basis for interpersonal communication ?

Personally, I see you as being totally different than many that claim to be offended. Many do so for the simple purpose of stopping another individuals self-expression. For example, many an individual will be offended if I state that 'Jesus'/'God' are imaginary friends for adults ... even though they have not and cannot prove that either 'Jesus' nor 'God' actually exist, and no one else has been able to do so either for the last 2,000 + years. Yet many of those individuals claiming to be offended are doing so merely to shut me up from stating the obvious.

Being offended about something says a lot about ourselves. While I wouldn't state it as being offended, I can recognise that others would see me as being offended by lies. Personally, I simply recognise that a lie is something that I find not to be beneficial in interpersonal relationships, so, while not being offended by it, I am willing to speak out against lies because I recognise the detrimental effect that they can have, not only on the one lying, but on those that believe the lie.

Basically, I see a difference between judging and being judgemental. If I am judging something, it is for the purpose of whether I would express myself in such a manner or not (in other words, whether I agree with the expression or not). If I am being judgemental, then I am condemning the other individual as being inferior in one form or another. Judging I see as a self-reflection, being judgemental as a self-projection.

Of course, I may have this arse-backwards, inside out, or even upside down.
thoreau wrote:
It is when claiming to be offended is an expectation for another individual to no longer express themselves in such a manner that it becomes a pathway to censorship. Political correctness is a prime example of this.

We appear to be simply describing the same thing, though coming at it from different perspectives, and any misunderstanding is probably because I haven't clearly communicated myself (although there might be slight differences in our ideas). So I'll explain my position a bit more with the intent of clarifying it.

i believe that we interact with the five elements (water, earth, air, fire and spirit) in a manner which can be described as energising ourselves from each element (feeding in a sense). From water, we drink. From earth we eat. From air we breathe. From fire we gain heat.There is a cross-over in this, such as using water and fire to cook food, or even heat and air to dry food out, plus many other ways in which each element can be interacted with.

From spirit we gain energy through communication with other individuated aspects of life. Thus to me, communicating is a spiritual opportunity to express to life itself, whether an individuated aspect or in its totality, Who I Am choosing to Be. Therefore, it is not my purpose or intent to offend any other individual ... though it is also not something that I have any control over, as each and every individual is responsible for there own feelings/emotional state in relationship to what they are experiencing.

Personally, I wouldn't like to offend you because I enjoy the interaction we are having and have enjoyed reading other posts that you have made upon this forum. Ultimately though, I have no control over whether you become offended by my self-expression or not. If it means that I would have to 'give up' a form of self-expression to maintain such a communication with you, then I am willing to 'give up' the communication and maintain my chosen self-expression ... which is something that I would encourage with yourself, or anyone else, if I made any demands upon you changing your self-expression (or even inferred an expectation that such should be done). Another way of saying it would be that I encourage everyone to remain true to themselves.

Anyway, that's a long-arsed response, though it is intended to convey a communication in a manner that is more comprehensible than I have thus far expressed myself. Thank you for taking the time to read it (as well as previous posts) and for your responses to what I have already posted, I have enjoyed reading them and responding to them. So, to finish off this long-arsed post, here's another poem ...


THE LOVER

THE WORDS I USE DESCRIBE ME,
WHEN MY HEART HAS OVERFLOWN,
THEY'RE FASHIONED POSITIVELY,
FROM MY MOUTH MY LOVE IS BLOWN,
AND MY WORDS ARE ALWAYS KNOWN,
FOR WHEN YOU LISTEN WITH YOUR HEART,
YOU'VE FOUND THE LOVERS ART.

MY HEART IS IN MY WORD,
IT GIFTS MY LOVE TO YOU,
A MESSAGE TO BE HEARD,
OF LOVE COMPLETELY TRUE,
AND MY WORDS WILL BRING THE NEW,
DANCING DOWN THROUGH TIME,
TO GIVE THE LOVERS RHYME.

THE WORD TO USE IS LOVE,
FOR ALL MAGICAL CREATIONS,
YOU'LL LEARN TO FLY ABOVE,
AND REACH NEW DESTINATIONS,
'CAUSE YOUR WORDS ARE COMBINATIONS,
OF ALL YOU CHOOSE TO BE,
TO SET YOUR LOVER FREE.

USING THE WORD EVERYDAY,
WILL SHOW YOUR HEARTS INTENT,
AND LOVE WILL LEAD THE WAY,
TO SHOW IT'S WHAT YOU MEANT,
FOR YOUR WORDS ARE YOUR LOVE SENT,
LEADING PEOPLE CLEAR,
TO SHOW YOUR LOVER'S HERE.