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TOPIC: Anarchy in Uganda

Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 01:31 #161

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Mike wrote:
Define widespread, as Dogsmilk brought it up earlier the French Revolution is an example of society having the potential to overthrow the bourgeois state, distribute the wealth of merchant bankers and failing to act at the decisive moment fell to counter revolutionary forces, there is a wealth of writing on this.

There was Anarchism in the USSR, it had nothing in common with this liberal democratic utopia you describe, it was a small well armed, well organized mercenary, individualist, and factionalist force, that on more than one occasion altered the course of the Russian Civil war.

What we see is that an individualist faction develops within a revolutionary movement declares itself anarchist, localist, regionalist or so on and appropriates the means of production to serve that private interest, you end up with a situation whereby the Leninists were fighting for the Anarchists to have the freedom to take steps towards Anarchism, but with the anarchists being naturally factionalist, while one faction may support the Bolshevik forces, another might deprive the Russian peasantry or soldiers of materials selling at a greater profit margin to White forces to secure their own "regional/tribal" private interests.

At points during democratic Transition anarchists were conducting civilian and strategic bombings in russia, do you condemn this aspect of Anarchist history like you expect me to condemn Che Guevara for shooting American Imperialist backed soldiers?

Taken to the nth degree, you are an anarchist.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 01:35 #162

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Ay and Thatcher too.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 01:43 #163

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A good argument for anarchy btw if you're ever with a Marxist, there wouldn't be any hospitals to keep old bats like that alive ;)
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 13:30 #164

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Mike wrote:
[I added some bolded points, I feel they offer in part an answer for your question "why the fuck..."?, perhaps you feel that the question we should pose anarchists is, "how do you go about achieving this:
organising society on a non hierarchical basis based on cooperation so, y'know, you don't have the super rich and a bunch of poor people and people dying in big wars

Without some form of political activity? What therefore is the political activity anarchists propose?

Well that would be varied. For example, instances where workers have taken control of factories (such as in Argentina and I think Oi might have posted something about a recent one in Greece) is in ilne with anarchist thought assuming the organisation is operated on a non-hierarchical basis with equal share of the proceeds. But at the core I think it's more about the philosophy we adopt in our everyday lives that in turn affects how we relate to other people. I think that's what makes anarchism more realist than Marxism. Marxism claims anarchism is "romantic", but is itself romantic by trying to pretend it's "scientific" (which it isn't - it's no more "scientific" than neo-liberalism is). Anarchism is more flexible and adpatable, though consequently can seem more ephemeral as a consequence. At least for me , anarchism is more han anything about how you relate to other people. Insitutions are created by people and will reflect how those people think. It's the difference between let's invest capital in making chairs because we can profit off people's labour and make a fortune and let's start making chairs because it would be really good if the community had well made chairs that will last.
At the present time anarchists (just like Marxists) are limited in their oplitical activity due to not having mass movements. Should such movements exist, these would allow the possibility meaningful activity to set up and run organisations according to these principles (productive, cultural and political). Alongside the typical agitation against the status quo. As it is, anarchists are largely related to protest and attempting propaganda - like Marxists.
Also you say "anarchism is a specific ideology" then go on to contradict that by saying there are "many strains".

Bad wording on my part. I was trying to get across that anarchism is not just not having a government, but based on political principles and that as well as being based on specific principles, these principles vary according to different strains of anarchism which may even be diamatrically opposed to one another.
It seems to me anarchism is an ideology applied to many situations and systems with varying degrees of success, it's never applied in the idealistic way modern Westerners believe but it's endemic throughout society, freedom of the press, free markets, free trade, free information, all under the rule of money.

The truth movement is a near perfect example of anarchy imo.

I think anarchistic ideas are applied in a very idealistic way in today's society,. For example the (totally false) notion that if you free private capital from the shackles of the state it will generate great wealth for all. But that's based on sub anarcho-capitalist notions that are actually pretty respectable. That's poles apart from anarchist communist notions that would do away with money and have a communist society based on mutual cooperation.

I don't see the truth movement as at alll anarchic myself (at least overall - pockets might be). Though it also depends on exactly what "truth movement" means. It's used to refer to 911 truthers and a notion of 'truth movement' in a general conspiracy sense.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 14:59 #165

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Mike wrote:
What we see is that an individualist faction develops within a revolutionary movement declares itself anarchist, localist, regionalist or so on and appropriates the means of production to serve that private interest, you end up with a situation whereby the Leninists were fighting for the Anarchists to have the freedom to take steps towards Anarchism, but with the anarchists being naturally factionalist, while one faction may support the Bolshevik forces, another might deprive the Russian peasantry or soldiers of materials selling at a greater profit margin to White forces to secure their own "regional/tribal" private interests.

?????????

The Leninists had no interest whatsoever in anarchists having the freedom to set up anarchy. In fact, they attacked them both physically and with propaganda. They were trying to control the country. Anarchists doing their own thing was not on the agenda, particularly in the Ukraine with its role in food production.
Though they weren''t all saints, I'm certainly not aware of the anarchists stealing stuff to sell to the white armies (who they were at war with) - do you have any evidence for that claim?
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 17:35 #166

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The Bolsheviks were trying to achieve "freedom to set up "anarchy"" for everyone, not just a small tribe of Anarchists.
During the civil war Anarchists via terrorism and freely spoken criticism impeded and aided that goal as it suited their own private interest.
libcom.org/library/russian-anarchists-civil-war-paul-avrich
There were so many factions of Anarchists during the Civil war period I don't see the point of the term, it's diluted, vague and closely aligned to nihilistic terror.

My point was badly worded, I never meant to imply Anarchists were stealing from the Red Army, it was more a general point whereby I think Anarchism subverts and detracts from the mass movement, it wasn't specific to Russian Anarchists or Ukranian, that would be the situation anywhere during a Revolution where "Anarchists (are) doing their own thing", their not going to do it for somebody's interest other than their own national, regional, tribal private interest.

Makhnov was essentially a reactionary (anti industrialist) mercenary leading a large band of guerrillas in the Civil War, his forces were drawn from Anarchists exiled from Russia after they started blowing shit up, Lenin's attitude toward Anarchy was derived from the bombing campaigns against Soviet installations by Anarchists.

Anarchism/Anarchist in your other post is just another vague term, it's pointless, like ""truth movement".
That's poles apart from anarchist communist notions that would do away with money and have a communist society based on mutual cooperation.
So basically Anarcho Communism is individualist romantic Marxism?
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 18:14 #167

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The major combatants of the Russian Civil War included five fighting groups: the Red Army, representing the military might of the emerging Soviet regime; the so-called White Army, which fought for a return to a Russian federation either in the form of a reconstituted monarchy or as a revival of the short-lived Provisional Government; Ukrainian forces that attempted to establish sovereignty in the southwest region of the former empire; anarchists under regional commanders such as Nestor Makhno; and a host of smaller forces under local warlords, freely associating with one cause or another as opportunities afforded themselves.
good article on pogroms
www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Russian_Civil_War
on the ground in Ukraine wasn't just some Liberal Anarchist Utopia:
The numerous orders and appeals of Makhno against pogroms were not issued merely for appearances. It will be clear from the above that any incidents (we shall refer to a few later) in the Makhnovschyna took place against Makhno's own strong beliefs, inclinations, and orders. In this respect he stands out from the other otamany in the Ukraine. One author lists Struk, Hryhoriyiv, and Shepel as responsible for many of the pogroms of 1919 (the worst year) and also ascribes a number to other otamany, and to the nationalists: not one is alleged against Makhno. For the period January to September 1919 the Central Committee of Zionist Organisations in Russia gives the following statistics: 210 pogroms in Kiyiv province, 56 in Volyn, 62 in Podol, 23 in Kherson, 1,5 in Poltava, 7 in Chernihiv, and one in the town of Katerynoslav. The worst offenders were the Nationalists with 15,000 victims, then the Volunteer Army with 9500, and Hryhiriyiv; followed by Sokolovsky, Struk, Yatsenko, and Soviet troops (500 victims). Again no mention of Makhno, and it is further significant that almost all these pogroms occurred on the right bank, western Ukraine, where the local otamany and the Nationalists were strong.
libcom.org/history/anti-semitism-makhnovists-michael-malet
In February 1919 Makhno called together the leaders of the local Jewish colonies, and, on hearing that there had been a few robberies and beatings, urged them to organise their own self-defence, and gave them rifles and ammunition for this purpose. When there were murmurs at this-continued anti-Jewish feeling in evidence-he and the newly-formed cultural-educational section of the army held a large number of meetings on the subject.

There is other evidence of this feeling. In the first of three known incidents, a detachment of soldiers in the Tsarekostyantynivka area refused to obey their commander, Kurylenko, and plundered Jewish colony no. 2. Makhno does not record any specific action against them, but declared the death penalty for such activities in future. On the very day that Kamenev came to see Makhno, the latter was travelling up the Berdyansk line to meet him at Hulyai Pole. En route at Kyrylivka station he noticed a placard saying `Smash the Jews, save the revolution, long live batko Makhno![2] On finding out that the person responsible, the stationmaster Khizny was an insurgent, a personal friend who had fought against the Whites, Makhno nonetheless had him shot soon afterwards. On 12 May 1919, about 20 Jews were murdered at the Jewish settlement of Gorkaya. It is not clear whether insurgents under Dermendji were responsible, or whether local peasants were taking revenge on hearing that three insurgents had been murdered at the colony, but a special commission of Nikolai, brother of the well-known insurgent Olexander Chubenko, Petrov, chief commissar attached to the Makhnovist forces, and three rank and file insurgents, was set up to inquire into and judge the case. It was decided that all the accused, having been found guilty of the pogrom, should be sent to the front. Makhno did not think this good enough, had the case reopened the following day, and persuaded the commission to have the ringleaders shot. In August 1920, after uniting with some nationalist detachments, a pogrom took place in Shishaki village. Makhno had ten to fifteen of the ringleaders shot at once. The Makhnovist paper described the incident as `a pollution on the good name of our movement'.[3]
Anarchy gentlemen.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 18:30 #168

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Ukrainian anarchist guerrilla bands were active during the Russian Civil War. Some claimed to be loyal to the Ukrainian state, but others acknowledged no allegiance; all fought both Red and White Russians with equal ferocity in the opening stages of the Civil War. Of all the anarchist groups, the most famous and successful was that of the peasant anarchist leader Nestor Makhno.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insu...nary_Army_of_Ukraine
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 18:34 #169

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A court....with the power to execute......sounds very much like an authority to me :roll:
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 18:47 #170

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In Paris, Makhno met the famous Spanish anarchists Buenaventura Durruti and Francisco Ascaso in 1927. He argued that in Spain "conditions for a revolution with a strong anarchist content are better than in Russia" because not only was there "a proletariat and a peasantry with a revolutionary tradition whose political maturity is shown in its reactions," the Spanish anarchists had "a sense of organisation which we lacked in Russia. It is organisation which assures the success in depth of all revolutions."
libcom.org/history/makhno-nestor-1889-1934

You don't overthrow an oppressive regime by submissively role over, you do it by collectively withholding it's means of production.
Prehistoric women knew that, and in all likelihood our Primate ancestors knew that, it requires solidarity and organization.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 20:32 #171

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Mike wrote:
The Bolsheviks were trying to achieve "freedom to set up "anarchy"" for everyone, not just a small tribe of Anarchists.
During the civil war Anarchists via terrorism and freely spoken criticism impeded and aided that goal as it suited their own private interest.
libcom.org/library/russian-anarchists-civil-war-paul-avrich
There were so many factions of Anarchists during the Civil war period I don't see the point of the term, it's diluted, vague and closely aligned to nihilistic terror.

My point was badly worded, I never meant to imply Anarchists were stealing from the Red Army, it was more a general point whereby I think Anarchism subverts and detracts from the mass movement, it wasn't specific to Russian Anarchists or Ukranian, that would be the situation anywhere during a Revolution where "Anarchists (are) doing their own thing", their not going to do it for somebody's interest other than their own national, regional, tribal private interest.

Makhnov was essentially a reactionary (anti industrialist) mercenary leading a large band of guerrillas in the Civil War, his forces were drawn from Anarchists exiled from Russia after they started blowing shit up, Lenin's attitude toward Anarchy was derived from the bombing campaigns against Soviet installations by Anarchists.

Makhnow certainly was not a fan of industrialisation. But he was busy setting up worker's Soviets and was more than happy to have a good relationship with the Reds. The crunch came because the anarchists refused to submit to the Red dictatorship.
So basically Anarcho Communism is individualist romantic Marxism?

More Marxism to be an offshoot of anarchist communism thought that pins everything on hero worshipping one guy and falls into the trap of thinking giving a small group of people enormous power is a good idea.
Anarchy gentlemen.

Well no. Anarchists killed people. Big deal. Executing people who murdered Jews in the middle of a war is hardly a dystopian nightmare. The Allies executed Nazi war criminals who killed Jews - nobody says that 'is democracy'.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 21:18 #172

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Marxism is revolutionary theory and realistic praxis for removing enormous power from a small group of people.
He was a continuation in the line of the Socialist Utopians like More, Fourier St Simon etcetera bringing a materialist method for analysing society and the achievement of post slavery, post capital, post dictatorship of the bourgeoisie Europe/World...

The point is not that Anarchists killed people, the Anarchist "leader" executed Anarchists and peasants who disobeyed his orders.

The point is that Ukraine was composed of warring factions, in a state of Anarchy, there was no Social direction, no social order, your description of anarchist "strains" suggests factionalism, you say yourself there is no one overriding anarchist ideal, just various spontaneous responses to perceived injustices, slogans, or sentiments, all I;m saying is there is more historical evidence to suggest Anarchy would be a mess, than some hippy utopia, have you considered Marx and Engel's knew this therefore theorized the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and Gradual Withering of the State, an official body to enforce Anarchist demands, it's no different to taking control of a factory.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 21:33 #173

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Mike wrote:
, it's no different to taking control of a factory.

As long as you're still of the mind to make a profit out of it.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2013 21:34 by andyh.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 22:07 #174

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Mike wrote:
Marxism is revolutionary theory and realistic praxis for removing enormous power from a small group of people.
He was a continuation in the line of the Socialist Utopians like More, Fourier St Simon etcetera bringing a materialist method for analysing society and the achievement of post slavery, post capital, post dictatorship of the bourgeoisie Europe/World...

The point is not that Anarchists killed people, the Anarchist "leader" executed Anarchists and peasants who disobeyed his orders.

The point is that Ukraine was composed of warring factions, in a state of Anarchy, there was no Social direction, no social order, your description of anarchist "strains" suggests factionalism, you say yourself there is no one overriding anarchist ideal, just various spontaneous responses to perceived injustices, slogans, or sentiments, all I;m saying is there is more historical evidence to suggest Anarchy would be a mess, than some hippy utopia, have you considered Marx and Engel's knew this therefore theorized the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and Gradual Withering of the State, an official body to enforce Anarchist demands, it's no different to taking control of a factory.

Well no. You're seizing on murderers being killed - murdering Jews for being Jews rather transcending disobeying an order like going AWOL or something - by an army in the middle of a brutal conflict. I can't see any anarchist society - or hopefully Marxist one or democratic one would tolerate antisemitic pogroms. What should they have done? Sent them to a rehabilitating healing workshop in Kiev? Your own source says Mahkno didn't "order" anything, it says he talked them into killing them rather than sending them to the front.
That is not a picture of an anarchist society. Even if it was as you said, that would not define anarchy. The Bolsheviks brutally suppressed the Kronstadt uprising - by people they claimed they were liberating - and executed them for daring to rebel against their authority. I do not, however, think that defines Marxism. Nor does Stalin starving millions of people to death. What it does is serve as a warning about letting a central authority seize power - something anarchism warns against and with Russia was proved correct.

There was direction in Ukraine - as far as could be achieved in the circumstances - the Mahknovists encouraged villages to set up Soviets to govern themselves.

And 'withering of the state' will not happen. As history has already demonstrated. It's just obvious if you hand a small group of people total power, they are not going to let it go.

You do have a point that anarchism will always feature people...being people. No political system ever devised has ever been devoid of violence, injustice and people doing bad things. But it is exactly because of this that anarchism wants to limit the capability of people to fuck up others. Nobody is claiming anarchism is the promise of some wondrous utopia devoid of all strife where the lion lies down with the lamb.
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2013 22:10 by dogsmilk.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 22:54 #175

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So now that we've discussed some historical examples of Anarchy, how does an Anarchist reach this:
"organising society on a non hierarchical basis based on cooperation so, y'know, you don't have the super rich and a bunch of poor people and people dying in big wars because some guy felt like telling them to go die. "
situation considering the history and current material conditions; necessity of established laws, regulatory institutions etc in keeping multi-millionaires, and wealthy criminal networks in check?
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2013 22:55 by Mike.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 22:55 #176

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Mike wrote:
So now that we've discussed some historical examples of Anarchy, how does an Anarchist reach this:
"organising society on a non hierarchical basis based on cooperation so, y'know, you don't have the super rich and a bunch of poor people and people dying in big wars because some guy felt like telling them to go die. "
situation considering the history and current material conditions; necessity of established laws, regulatory institutions etc in keeping multi-millionaires, and wealthy criminal networks in check?

You get rid of the monetary system.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 23:02 #177

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Get 300pages and a few editions out of that subject and you'll be the modern Karl Marx ;)
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2013 23:02 by Mike.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 23:14 #178

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Jacques Fresco, TVP etc is the modern Utopian Socialist movement ;)

All theory must lead somewhere, if you want something in thought you have to do something to achieve it physically.
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 23:29 #179

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Mike wrote:
Jacques Fresco, TVP etc is the modern Utopian Socialist movement ;)

All theory must lead somewhere, if you want something in thought you have to do something to achieve it physically.

Here you go with the stupid 'utopian' word again.
Could you point out to everyone where Fresco mentions total societal perfection for us or just quit using such stupid language and boring the crap out of us all?
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Anarchy in Uganda 21 Feb 2013 23:49 #180

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Mike wrote:
So now that we've discussed some historical examples of Anarchy, how does an Anarchist reach this:
"organising society on a non hierarchical basis based on cooperation so, y'know, you don't have the super rich and a bunch of poor people and people dying in big wars because some guy felt like telling them to go die. "
situation considering the history and current material conditions; necessity of established laws, regulatory institutions etc in keeping multi-millionaires, and wealthy criminal networks in check?

How does a Marxist? I mean, a friend of mine used to attend a Marxist reading group...where everyone sat around discussing in meticulous detail what life would be like after the revolution. They apparently didn't realise the revolution was not in fact occurring. (That's not a dig at Marxists in general btw, just a real example of some particular people - could have been something else but they were in reality Marxists).
Atm anarchists and Marxists are a bit up shit creek - in having no kind of medium sized let alone mass movements. So what you do is you find like minded people, get together and start trying to get your ideas across while getting involved with other people whose aims are in harmony with yours, to protest, do direct action, disseminate propaganda and try to build up some kind of revival of interest in radical politics. From an anarchist perspective you start with a flat hierarchy, rotation of positions of responsibility and an atmosphere of solidarity. This is propaganda by example - showing people what you're about at a grass roots level is IMO far more important than declaring how great life will be after the revolution. And from the position you're in, worrying about what you're going to do after the revolution is about as practical as contingency planning for an alien invasion. You cross that bridge when you get to it. Anarchism is about adapting, learning and not thinking your grand idea is what everyone is going to be doing come the day.
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2013 23:53 by dogsmilk.
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