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TOPIC: Anarchy in Uganda

Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 00:04 #201

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Mike wrote:
There are obstacles to evolution, how do anarchists propose we overcome them?

What a stupid question.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 00:05 #202

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Mike wrote:
who creates the vast fortunes of the worlds billionaires and industrialists?
?

Everyone co-creates the reality by believing it exists.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 00:18 #203

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It means you find someone else's thoughts to repeat -in this case an authority on "anarchism" Stuart Christie- when pressed by someone to publicy state what you personally think?

Say that lovely monologue is what it means, can we agree there are some points there which need to be clarified?
the role of the anarchist will be to do what they can to ensure that the social institutions required to ensure that any human society function justly, fairly and as conflict-free as is humanly possible, are — and remain — fundamentally democratic, libertarian and answerable to the community.
That sounds like political platitudes, so society must --remain-- "fundamentally democratic", aligned to the Enlightenment ideology of Libertarianism, and ensure that society function "justly, fairly and conflict free" etc, seeing that modern conceptions of democracy are probably different to what mr Christie meant, and seeing that modern society is not just, fair or conflict free, what do Anarchists do to uphold these fine words?
Is it working?

I find it quite disingenuous or contradictory, neither would surprise me, to say human society must remain organized in a certain way "fundamentally democratic", along libertarian principles and then say:
"ideological fundamentalists believe in the ‘rapture’ that creates the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, or the ‘last fight’ "
It sounds like he's one of those Western Petit Bourgeois Anarchists who believe the Kingdom of Heaven already arrived in the 18th century.
"Democracy and capital could happily coexist with more liberty for everyone" :rofl:
Last Edit: 23 Feb 2013 00:21 by Mike.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 00:26 #204

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God that guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb, fair play to him, hardly a great poster boy for what Anarchism means, when taken in the context of RA's thread here.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 09:07 #205

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andyh wrote:
dogsmilk wrote:
Mike wrote:
Basically what I've seen here is you revert to basing your answers as an Anarchist on counter points against (your version of) "Marxism", so essentially every substantial theoretical question I raise to understand anarchism reverts to you talking about Marxism, why it's so "authoritarian" and just about "Hero worship" and state capitalism, a mate's story about some book club.

I'm not sure what "substantial theoretical questions" you're actually asking beyond 'how will you model your future society' in sweeping terms. I struggle with what answers you're looking for. I can't say well in an anarchist society this, this and that will be done because that's just me making stuff up that has no more validity than saying well when anarchy happens we'll genetically engineer dinosaurs like in Jurassic Park, feed the bosses to them then have a big dinosaur parade through London.
I view anarchism as a way of looking at the world, as a set of political principles that guide action, not as some blueprint for how things will be done. Which kind of defeats the object as this creates political dogma which leads to vanguardism which leads to disastrous botched opportunities like the Soviet Union.
The story about the book club was just to illusyrate the dangers of theoretical masturbation.
What a few peeps in a squat?

Well people could live in a squat, but generally regular people typically with jobs and houses and kids and stuff. What makes you imagine anarchists are automatically going to be people living in squats?
It's absolutely the antithesis of what Marxism or anything claiming to be Marxism is, yes it's nice to dream, but fuck, I;m asking you in a pre revolutionary country how Anarchists intend to achieve their aims.

And conversely, I'm inviting you to say how Marxists intend to achieve their aims.
I can't tell you how "anarchists" intend to achieve their aims because I'm not their spokesperson. "Anarchists" are doing their own thing based on what their groups decide to be doing. At this point, I'd say the prime goal though is to try to build some kind of 'movement' because it currently does not exist.

Marxists just want more of the same old socialist crap with some new leaders instead.
Rinse and repeat, the proles just feel happier about it for a while til they get pissed off again.

Ten pages in, 180 odd replies and you still have not read or understood Anarchism :spank:
"because I'm not their spokesperson" they dont have spokesmen/women ffs :hedbut:

By the way when you go out dont you polish your shoes or look smart ya tramp !! :super:
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 09:13 #206

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oioioi wrote:
<<An anarchist society is and always will be an aspiration, an ideal —a ‘star’ to follow — one that provides us with an ethical code, a moral barometer and a libertarian political template for our everyday lives. If and when a social revolutionary situation recurs again (in this country or anywhere) the role of the anarchist will be to do what they can to ensure that the social institutions required to ensure that any human society (including health and welfare,and security/defence services), function justly, fairly and as conflict-free as is humanly possible, are — and remain — fundamentally democratic, libertarian and answerable to the community. It’s not about achieving Nirvana or a Utopia, only religious zealots and ideological fundamentalists believe in the ‘rapture’ that creates the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, or the ‘last fight’ mentioned in ‘The Internationale’. Anarchists appreciate only too well how ‘imperfect’ human beings are and, doubtless always will be, which is why they reject institutionalised power structures as the bedrock for the creation of oligarchies (well-meaning or otherwise) and the corrupting of the body politic.>> (Stuart Christie - "Thoughts of a Veteran Anarchist")

Why dont you put the question in to the reply ?
The question:
"Do you think that a. the NHS, b. Social security, c. police, d. military, could continue to function, or would be necessary, in an anarchist society?"

"social institutions required to ensure that any human society (including health and welfare,and security/defence services), function justly, fairly and as conflict-free as is humanly possible, are "

Where there is Security and defence there is a hierarchy :pop:
Fucking dreamers :poke: :pmsl:
Last Edit: 23 Feb 2013 09:14 by entrangermercenary1.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 11:29 #207

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
andyh wrote:
dogsmilk wrote:
Mike wrote:
Basically what I've seen here is you revert to basing your answers as an Anarchist on counter points against (your version of) "Marxism", so essentially every substantial theoretical question I raise to understand anarchism reverts to you talking about Marxism, why it's so "authoritarian" and just about "Hero worship" and state capitalism, a mate's story about some book club.

I'm not sure what "substantial theoretical questions" you're actually asking beyond 'how will you model your future society' in sweeping terms. I struggle with what answers you're looking for. I can't say well in an anarchist society this, this and that will be done because that's just me making stuff up that has no more validity than saying well when anarchy happens we'll genetically engineer dinosaurs like in Jurassic Park, feed the bosses to them then have a big dinosaur parade through London.
I view anarchism as a way of looking at the world, as a set of political principles that guide action, not as some blueprint for how things will be done. Which kind of defeats the object as this creates political dogma which leads to vanguardism which leads to disastrous botched opportunities like the Soviet Union.
The story about the book club was just to illusyrate the dangers of theoretical masturbation.
What a few peeps in a squat?

Well people could live in a squat, but generally regular people typically with jobs and houses and kids and stuff. What makes you imagine anarchists are automatically going to be people living in squats?
It's absolutely the antithesis of what Marxism or anything claiming to be Marxism is, yes it's nice to dream, but fuck, I;m asking you in a pre revolutionary country how Anarchists intend to achieve their aims.

And conversely, I'm inviting you to say how Marxists intend to achieve their aims.
I can't tell you how "anarchists" intend to achieve their aims because I'm not their spokesperson. "Anarchists" are doing their own thing based on what their groups decide to be doing. At this point, I'd say the prime goal though is to try to build some kind of 'movement' because it currently does not exist.

Marxists just want more of the same old socialist crap with some new leaders instead.
Rinse and repeat, the proles just feel happier about it for a while til they get pissed off again.

Ten pages in, 180 odd replies and you still have not read or understood Anarchism :spank:
"because I'm not their spokesperson" they dont have spokesmen/women ffs :hedbut:

By the way when you go out dont you polish your shoes or look smart ya tramp !! :super:

Yes you haven't.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 11:30 #208

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
Where there is a need for Security and defence there is a hierarchy :pop:
Fucking dreamers :poke: :pmsl:

Fixed.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 11:33 #209

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oioioi wrote:
<<An anarchist society is and always will be an aspiration, an ideal —a ‘star’ to follow — one that provides us with an ethical code, a moral barometer and a libertarian political template for our everyday lives. If and when a social revolutionary situation recurs again (in this country or anywhere) the role of the anarchist will be to do what they can to ensure that the social institutions required to ensure that any human society (including health and welfare,and security/defence services), function justly, fairly and as conflict-free as is humanly possible, are — and remain — fundamentally democratic, libertarian and answerable to the community. It’s not about achieving Nirvana or a Utopia, only religious zealots and ideological fundamentalists believe in the ‘rapture’ that creates the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, or the ‘last fight’ mentioned in ‘The Internationale’. Anarchists appreciate only too well how ‘imperfect’ human beings are and, doubtless always will be, which is why they reject institutionalised power structures as the bedrock for the creation of oligarchies (well-meaning or otherwise) and the corrupting of the body politic.>> (Stuart Christie - "Thoughts of a Veteran Anarchist")

Thanks for posting that. :)

I've just added Granny Made Me An Anarchist to my book list.

:)
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 13:04 #210

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
.

Ten pages in, 180 odd replies and you still have not read or understood Anarchism :spank:
"because I'm not their spokesperson" they dont have spokesmen/women ffs :hedbut: [/quote]

So maybe that's why I'm not their spokeman. Duh. :rofl:

Though in actuality anarchists can have a spokesperson. I'll leave you to find out how.
By the way when you go out dont you polish your shoes or look smart ya tramp !! :super:

Who cares about looking "smart" and why would you call someone a "tramp"? Oh I see. You have this notion that social status is inferred by grooming rituals. How quaint.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 13:09 #211

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
oioioi wrote:
<<An anarchist society is and always will be an aspiration, an ideal —a ‘star’ to follow — one that provides us with an ethical code, a moral barometer and a libertarian political template for our everyday lives. If and when a social revolutionary situation recurs again (in this country or anywhere) the role of the anarchist will be to do what they can to ensure that the social institutions required to ensure that any human society (including health and welfare,and security/defence services), function justly, fairly and as conflict-free as is humanly possible, are — and remain — fundamentally democratic, libertarian and answerable to the community. It’s not about achieving Nirvana or a Utopia, only religious zealots and ideological fundamentalists believe in the ‘rapture’ that creates the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, or the ‘last fight’ mentioned in ‘The Internationale’. Anarchists appreciate only too well how ‘imperfect’ human beings are and, doubtless always will be, which is why they reject institutionalised power structures as the bedrock for the creation of oligarchies (well-meaning or otherwise) and the corrupting of the body politic.>> (Stuart Christie - "Thoughts of a Veteran Anarchist")

Why dont you put the question in to the reply ?
The question:
"Do you think that a. the NHS, b. Social security, c. police, d. military, could continue to function, or would be necessary, in an anarchist society?"

"social institutions required to ensure that any human society (including health and welfare,and security/defence services), function justly, fairly and as conflict-free as is humanly possible, are "

Where there is Security and defence there is a hierarchy :pop:
Fucking dreamers :poke: :pmsl:

You could check out what anarchists did in Spain in the 1930s. They ran industrial concerns (for example the anarchists ran the telephone exchange) and they fought a war, the anarchists being noted for being very effective fighters. They had officers, but if the soldiers didn't like the order they'd argue with it, so a military hierarchy existed from an organisational perspective, but the officers functioned by being respected and wre ultimately asking people to do things, not telling them.
We've also been talking about the Black Army on this thread, which was another highly effective anarchist army. But I guess you doidn't see it on your travels so it didn't happen :D
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 13:13 #212

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Mike wrote:
God that guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb, fair play to him, hardly a great poster boy for what Anarchism means, when taken in the context of RA's thread here.

A guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb you say? What has that got to do with social chaos in Uganda?

Many anarchists would disagree with Andy and see themselves as revolutionary (not that that difference in opinion matters - both are just different perspectives). Revolutionaries (of any political persausion) might be violent.

The lady in my avatar (Brigitte Mohnhaupt), among other things, tried to assasinate a US army general with an anti-tank rocket. She did this from a Marxist revolutionary perspective. Does that mean Uganda has gone Marxist?
Last Edit: 23 Feb 2013 13:14 by dogsmilk.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 13:21 #213

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Anarchy, apparently you either get it or you don't dream :D
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 15:39 #214

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Well i learned that Anarchy is a controversial word that has all different types of interpretations.

They still need to find the right label for this movement which the poor stand up to the rich for a better quality of life.
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 15:50 #215

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.......... wrote:
Well i learned that Anarchy is a controversial word that has all different types of interpretations.

But only one definition.

They still need to find the right label for this movement which the poor stand up to the rich for a better quality of life.

Class war.
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Last Edit: 23 Feb 2013 15:52 by oioioi.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 15:57 #216

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Class war sounds so vague...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 16:22 #217

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dogsmilk wrote:
Mike wrote:
God that guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb, fair play to him, hardly a great poster boy for what Anarchism means, when taken in the context of RA's thread here.

A guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb you say? What has that got to do with social chaos in Uganda?

Many anarchists would disagree with Andy and see themselves as revolutionary (not that that difference in opinion matters - both are just different perspectives). Revolutionaries (of any political persausion) might be violent.

The lady in my avatar (Brigitte Mohnhaupt), among other things, tried to assasinate a US army general with an anti-tank rocket. She did this from a Marxist revolutionary perspective. Does that mean Uganda has gone Marxist?
well the point was mainly that Anarchism doesn't seem to fit the ideals of most here.
It's generally people like the Anarchists here that complain about such things, fair play to the guy, I just see his actions as kind of incompatible to the way people here represent anarchy.

I don't have labels, how anarchistic is that?
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 19:16 #218

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Mike wrote:
dogsmilk wrote:
Mike wrote:
God that guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb, fair play to him, hardly a great poster boy for what Anarchism means, when taken in the context of RA's thread here.

A guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb you say? What has that got to do with social chaos in Uganda?

Many anarchists would disagree with Andy and see themselves as revolutionary (not that that difference in opinion matters - both are just different perspectives). Revolutionaries (of any political persausion) might be violent.

The lady in my avatar (Brigitte Mohnhaupt), among other things, tried to assasinate a US army general with an anti-tank rocket. She did this from a Marxist revolutionary perspective. Does that mean Uganda has gone Marxist?
well the point was mainly that Anarchism doesn't seem to fit the ideals of most here.
It's generally people like the Anarchists here that complain about such things, fair play to the guy, I just see his actions as kind of incompatible to the way people here represent anarchy.

I don't have labels, how anarchistic is that?

I'm not sure what you mean. Anarchism evolved as a revolutionary ideology, but the nature in which that is expressed is varied, just as it is with people who support other political systems. Some anarchists believe in violent revolution, some are pacifists, some like Andy believe anarchism will evolve. I don't get what the big point is. People who subscribe to capitalist democracy might be pacifists or they might believe capitalist democracy should be instigated by force. People have a habit of being on a continuum in how far they think it's legitimate to use political violence or how they believe a certain state of affairs should come about.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 19:22 #219

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dogsmilk wrote:
Mike wrote:
dogsmilk wrote:
Mike wrote:
God that guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb, fair play to him, hardly a great poster boy for what Anarchism means, when taken in the context of RA's thread here.

A guy tried to blow up Franco with a bomb you say? What has that got to do with social chaos in Uganda?

Many anarchists would disagree with Andy and see themselves as revolutionary (not that that difference in opinion matters - both are just different perspectives). Revolutionaries (of any political persausion) might be violent.

The lady in my avatar (Brigitte Mohnhaupt), among other things, tried to assasinate a US army general with an anti-tank rocket. She did this from a Marxist revolutionary perspective. Does that mean Uganda has gone Marxist?
well the point was mainly that Anarchism doesn't seem to fit the ideals of most here.
It's generally people like the Anarchists here that complain about such things, fair play to the guy, I just see his actions as kind of incompatible to the way people here represent anarchy.

I don't have labels, how anarchistic is that?

I'm not sure what you mean. Anarchism evolved as a revolutionary ideology, but the nature in which that is expressed is varied, just as it is with people who support other political systems. Some anarchists believe in violent revolution, some are pacifists, some like Andy believe anarchism will evolve. I don't get what the big point is. People who subscribe to capitalist democracy might be pacifists or they might believe capitalist democracy should be instigated by force. People have a habit of being on a continuum in how far they think it's legitimate to use political violence or how they believe a certain state of affairs should come about.

Anarchism is about social ideal. Its something we have to evolve towards. Its not achieved through revolution or force because thats just more of the same.
Anarchism cannot be enforced, its a ridiculous thing to think otherwise or to make stupid questions about police and hospitals.
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Anarchy in Uganda 23 Feb 2013 19:34 #220

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andyh wrote:
Mike wrote:
andyh wrote:
Its an evolutionary concept not a revolutionary one.
It is therefore a complete waste of time to try and explain it.
There are clear cut and obvious obstacles to evolution, what do anarchists think we should do to remove constraints?

Nothing.
You let happen what naturally happens.
Andy can you clarify, being an anarchist means doing "nothing" to remove constraints and negative influences on Evolution?
Anarchism is about social ideal. Its something we have to evolve towards. Its not achieved through revolution or force because thats just more of the same.
So what does this predetermined "end state" of humanity look like?
You're basically just appropriating Marx's Communism, at least he did the Theoretical groundwork to explain and show why he thought Communism would be eventual.
You haven't done that you're just a utopian.
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