I've done a thread on this before...but this topic fascinates me.

Having a work ethic is something that I really struggle with. I am bone idle. I try to avoid all unnecessary forms of work. If I do have work or something onerous to do, I will always leave it to the last minute. I have a cleaner, if I had a garden then I would have a gardener. I don't feel remotely ashamed of any of this.

My mum has a really strong work ethic, and would never, for example, leave the pots unwashed after dinner. I have never once seen her do that. Her husband is just the same. They feel guilty if they're sitting around and not working, particularly in the afternoon. They're always gardening or doing housework or doing some sort of (what I consider) needless activity. I never bought into this. I know that a lot of it comes from social conditioning. I worked in places where people would stay late and work for free because they felt obliged to do so. Despite the example of my mum, somehow this social conditioning passed me by. Maybe it was because of my dad, but I don't really think that it was, I've just always felt I'd rather be doing something enjoyable than working, unless I absolutely have to work.

This came to mind because I was listening to a radio programme yesterday in which the Spanish journalist Guillem Balague interviewed Gary Neville. One of the few footballers that I would listen to for an hour, although I didn't listen to the whole two-hour programme. It was pretty interesting, but the one thing that came out of it for me was how driven and what an incredible work ethic this guy has. Getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning every day after sleeping 5 1/2 hours and just working constantly on various projects and businesses. When he's already wealthy!

And he's not doing it for social status or ego, he's a really genuine guy and he said in the documentary that he won't get involved with anything that he doesn't love and believe in. And I think he was telling the truth. But all I could think was...I would not take on all of this hassle. If I was in his position and I absolutely had to run a business (I can think of much easier ways to guarantee an income) then it would be a business where I don't need to do anything! Beyond occasionally answering an email (no phone calls, thank you) when I needed to rubber stamp something, I wouldn't want to be involved. It wouldn't be remotely motivating for me.

I feel that I'm getting lazier as I get older not less lazy. Usually you somewhat grow out of it. I think I'm getting worse.

Is this a bad thing, or is it a good thing? Is it good to be driven and motivated, or is it ultimately pointless? Is it good to have a work ethic, or is it right to deem this a completely false ethic put in our heads by our masters? Should you be goal-oriented, or should you be motivated by leisure, relaxation, fun and pleasure?

I seem to swing between the two of either full steam driven to work long and hard hours (as long as over time is paid) or do as little as possible. I find it hard to do inbetween the two extremes.

I share a similar perspective WuB. I just wanna do what I wanna do & not have to be arsed about anything at all. Things get done either when I want them to or when they really have to be done. I despise meaningless, fruitless, unfulfilling tasks that have been done thousands of times before and will be done thousands of times more by billions of people. There's simply nothing to learn from it and I think that's what makes it seem so tedious.

Things changed a bit when Mia the Menace was born though. I had to become more disciplined in many ways.



"Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live."
- Norman Cousins:

"The debt and work cycle is an ingenious tool of subjugation. Make people think they need all these things, then they must have a job, and they give up control of their lives. It's as simple as that. We live in one of the most free countries in the world, but we fix it so we are not free at all. "
- Larry Roth

"Capitalism only supports certain kinds of groups, the nuclear family for example, or 'the people I know at my job', because such groups are already self-alienated & hooked into the Work/Consume/Die structure."
- Hakim Bey

"Supposing we suddenly imagine a world in which nearly everybody is doing what they want. Then we don't need to be paid in order to work and the whole issue of how money circulates, how we get things done, suddenly alters."
- Robert Theobald

"When survival or mere subsistence is at stake, a society can focus only on the overwhelming needs of the moment, and questions of meaningful work and leisure are considered purely academic. But we believe that the world has enough wealth to move all of humanity above survival and subsistence."
- Alfonso Montuori & Isabella Conti, From Power to Partnership: Creating the Future of Love, Work, and Community

wake_up_bomb wrote:
On that last sentence, I think some of us need the former to achieve the latter, since money is needed to do things in many cases unfortunately. and it can ultimately buy more freedom if you have enough of it.

So then perhaps it becomes about what you can get out of the work you put in for some people, its certainly the case for me.. because i think work for works sake is mad (i know others dont think that)

i think everybody has different levels of motivation and at least for some of us this perhaps comes down to what we think we can get out of what were putting in....i find it difficult to get motivated doing mundane tasks, i certainly avoid needless work/activity, which you mentioned in the OP.. i cant understand people who do these things just for the sake of having to do something, i think its quite mad, but then again the whole system is mad and im aware people have been conditioned as youve said.

And its probably all the more difficult for those who are quite aware of the debt/usury pyramid type system, as we are aware of what others are getting out of it (a great deal for some) versus what we get out of it. For example when people around me see the smiling faces of the actors in the bank ads they probably dont think much past the smiling faces whereas i think of bankers crusing in gulfstreams and such, enjoying the obscene wages they are paid...which are off the backs of all of our labour and it goes even further than that.. many listed companies (at least here) are propped up by compulsory retirement fund payments pulled out of everyones pay packet, and that goes into the stock market and therefore injected into these corporations.. who can then take for example an 8 billion dollar loss one year (eg BHP past financial year) but we know the board and CEO's dont take any losses!

We are paying for that, and its tough to know that and then go put alot of effort into something in a work sense when you know you wont get much out of it.

So effort vs gain comes into it for some of us i think. And that is just one aspect of it, there is also obligations some of us have to dependent others, or to debt.. all of these things come into play and affect an individuals motivation.

If any of you have ever had a nosey at things like the 'henry jackson initiative for inclusive capitalism' you will see that some of the elite are 'concerned' that people arent buying into their game anymore.. hence the creation of this think tank. And the cynic in me tells me that most of their motivation boils down to usury and the debt cycle they want us in with property and business loans, which they benefit greatly from in so many ways.

I'm on the same boat with Ian.... Its usually all or nothing kind of thing for me. But I also really can't be arsed to do things I do not like. Money does not motivate me on its own. It is very difficult thing as in Finland people usually have the idea that to work is the meaning of life, a job is the most important thing there is, even if its absolutely stupid and meaningless, its THE thing.

I detest wasted effort and meaningless work. Its a real problem as I badly need some kind of income to make certain things happen in my life. Secondly there's huge unemployment here, there are no jobs like there used to be. Its a gargantuan problem as most people have this crazy idea about working themselves to death being the greatest thing in life. Then they get depressed when they don't have a job. In an ideal situation I would only do things which I really enjoy doing, actually that's quite like things are right now. The problem is that I don't have a good income and the guilt of not working to make a living and living "off somebody's work" is a burden.

I have never understood why some people kill themselves with too much work when its not necessary or enjoyable in any kind of way. Its insane as when you leave, you can't take anything with you anyway.

I'll always remember a quote from the late Diamond Geezer....

I quite enjoy doing stuff. If there's a plumbing issue, i quite like the process of working out what's going on. I like getting my saws, chisels and screwdrivers out and making summat out of wood. I'm rather fond of fixing cars...etc.
Doing stuff isn't really an issue for me, as much as i also likr doing nowt.
Lining fat cats' pockets with my efforts? Slaving hour after hour for the crumbs of a ginormously glorious packet of biscwits consumed by wankers? Mass exploitation, slavery and oppression. Yes, i have a big issue with those things.
This was the final straw for me in the job i was doing the past few years. The place was bought by an exploitative, fat cat wanker...so twas only a matter of time till i walked.
Now, i still 'have' to work, so i'm headed back to SE....

The trick is to give the appearance of being busy when someone is looking

Turns out, I also like doing stuff...and learning it from a hands on point of view....it's good

I like doing stuff too - hence horses all my life! And doing stuff leads me to be able to sit still later in the day and do the mental stuff - writing.

But I HATE working for anyone else!