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TOPIC: Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand?

Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 01:20 #1

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Please watch the 38 second video at the Source:

At the TEDx conference in Detroit last week, RoboRoach #12 scuttled across the exhibition floor, pursued not by an exterminator but by a gaggle of fascinated onlookers. Wearing a tiny backpack of microelectronics on its shell, the cockroach—a member of the Blaptica dubia species—zigzagged along the corridor in a twitchy fashion, its direction controlled by the brush of a finger against an iPhone touch screen (as seen in video above).

RoboRoach #12 and its brethren are billed as a do-it-yourself neuroscience experiment that allows students to create their own “cyborg” insects. The roach was the main feature of the TEDx talk by Greg Gage and Tim Marzullo, co-founders of an educational company called Backyard Brains. After a summer Kickstarter campaign raised enough money to let them hone their insect creation, the pair used the Detroit presentation to show it off and announce that starting in November, the company will, for $99, begin shipping live cockroaches across the nation, accompanied by a microelectronic hardware and surgical kits geared toward students as young as 10 years old.

That news, however, hasn’t been greeted warmly by everyone. Gage and Marzullo, both trained as neuroscientists and engineers, say that the purpose of the project is to spur a “neuro-revolution” by inspiring more kids to join the fields when they grow up, but some critics say the project is sending the wrong message. "They encourage amateurs to operate invasively on living organisms" and "encourage thinking of complex living organisms as mere machines or tools," says Michael Allen Fox, a professor of philosophy at Queen's University in Kingston, Canada.

“It’s kind of weird to control via your smartphone a living organism,” says William Newman, a presenter at TEDx and managing principal at the Newport Consulting Group, who got to play with a RoboRoach at the conference. At the same time, he says, he is pleased that the project will teach students about the neuroscience behind brain stimulation treatments that are being used to treat two of his friends with Parkinson’s disease.

The roaches’ movements to the right or left are controlled by electrodes that feed into their antennae and receive signals by remote control—via the Bluetooth signals emitted by smartphones. To attach the device to the insect, students are instructed to douse the insect in ice water to “anesthetize” it, sand a patch of shell on its head so that the superglue and electrodes will stick, and then insert a groundwire into the insect’s thorax. Next, they must carefully trim the insect’s antennae, and insert silver electrodes into them. Ultimately, these wires receive electrical impulses from a circuit affixed to the insect’s back.

Gage says the roaches feel little pain from the stimulation, to which they quickly adapt. But the notion that the insects aren’t seriously harmed by having body parts cut off is “disingenuous,” says animal behavior scientist Jonathan Balcombe of the Humane Society University in Washington, D.C. “If it was discovered that a teacher was having students use magnifying glasses to burn ants and then look at their tissue, how would people react?”

Gage says that in his experience, working carefully and closely with insects and other animals in experiments can sensitize students to the fact that roaches “are actually similar to us and have the same neurons that we have.” He also notes that the company doesn’t kill their own roaches after the experiments, but sends them to a “retirement” tank that the team calls Shady Acres. Although they may be missing legs or antennae, the insects tend to get on with their lives after the experiments, he says. “They do what they like to do: make babies, eat, and poop.”

“I try not to downplay the fact that in science we use animal models and a lot of times they are killed,” Gage says. “As scientists, we do this all the time, but it happens behind closed doors.” By following the surgical instructions, he says, all students learn that they have to care for the roaches—treating wounds by “putting a little Vaseline” on them, and minimizing suffering whenever possible. Still, Gage acknowledges, “we get a lot of e-mails telling us we’re teaching kids to be psychopaths.”

The RoboRoach “gives you a way of playing with living things,” like a short-lived version of the forbidden “Imperius Curse” in the Harry Potter novels, says bioethicist Gregory Kaebnick of the Hastings Center in Garrison, New York. He finds the product “unpleasant,” but adds that he won’t be calling for a boycott, either. “I’ll just be happy that I found a cleverly marketed consumer item that I am very happy not to own.”
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 01:25 #2

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It took me about 2 nanoseconds to decide this was wrong.
It's wrong if it's cockroaches, wrong if it were dogs, cats, horses, orphans what-the-fuck-ever we end up opening the gate too because if we accept this then it will become 'normal' with hideous consequences.

Mail-order, amateur vivisection?
Fuck no!
Last Edit: 08 Oct 2013 01:27 by feather.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 01:46 #3

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Yes, it is wrong and we have just degraded ourselves one step further.
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 02:03 #4

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"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop and think whether they should".



I really recommend the novel of Jurassic Park, it was well ahead of its time, a cautionary tale about the power and dangers of genetic engineering. Not just dinosaurs eating people like the film.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 06:51 #5

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I don't like it. This kind of tampering with nature is always sold as having some form of benefit in expanding boundaries in the medical world, but apart from its immediate assault on ethics, you just know there's the likelihood of it being applied for arrogant and blatantly abusive purposes at some point.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 09:06 #6

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the old maxim, do unto others.....applies here.
would the tossers behind this like it if i cut their ears off, inserted a wire in their arse, a chip on their back and then made them run around by remote control?

yeah. course they would...
"laws are unenforceable if the majority break them."-humanspirit,
"avoid the concept of an ambassador for truth altogether"-gilly.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 09:07 #7

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Boot


one of these and its fucked
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 12:25 #8

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i suppose in principle its wrong, but then again i kill insects by the thousand. kids pull legs off insects just out of curiosity. cut worms in half. dissect frogs in class. its not really neuroscience is it, zapping antennas to make them turn left or right.
i dont like to see things in pain you know, but i have a hard time to give a shit about roaches.
if it was something cute like fireflies or praying mantis sure.. but fuck roaches.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 12:53 #9

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Do you believe the experimentation will be restricted to bugs though, coz I don't. That's just the 1st step. The ultimate goal isn't going to be playing with insects.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 13:23 #10

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its already not. they experiment on people and everything else.
but this i think is just a business opportunity to sell $6 of electronics and a roach for $99. the only thing about it is you 'control' it via blue tooth.
its not mind control, its natural insticts control manipulating their antennas.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 14:17 #11

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Gilly wrote:
Do you believe the experimentation will be restricted to bugs though, coz I don't. That's just the 1st step. The ultimate goal isn't going to be playing with insects.

Correct Gilly :)
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 14:35 #12

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iPhones already control people don't they?
Set the controls for the heart of the earth.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 15:46 #13

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I'm not an animal rights activist in any way but I am ardently in support of animal rights. Co-incidentally, I penned a futuristic novel a few years ago which touched upon animal rights, terrorism, political intrigue and covert experimentation - which I may see about getting published (except book publishing today is...well, another story).

If it's of interest, here's snippet...if not sorry for taking up the space! (Paragraphs won't indent here for some reason.)

In the corridor outside, the unexpected presence of the Levinskis rocked Falroy, whereupon he effected a look of penitent despair. With the zoologist couple accompanying the SD regulators, the research director led the group past the main laboratories to the keypad door of Enclosure 3. After entering the code, the bolts unlocked with a forceful thud and they entered the access hall with a blue door ahead.
“I ah…” began Falroy, but words failed him.
“Keep going, Doctor,” Vargesson said firmly, and saw disconcerted curiosity on the faces of the Levinskis.
“By the way, Rick,” said Franz, “I've dispatched a memo to our central office regarding the Aura’s illegal animal procurement - I trust that’s in order?”
Vargesson half-grinned at the grey-bearded zoologist, glad to have started some UWF cogs turning to lend weight to a major scandal that was about to break. “Maybe a tad early,” he replied. “But no problem, Franz.”
Ahead, Falroy touched a wall button and the blue door slid open. Reluctantly he led everyone onto the dingy walkway. Semi-darkness and an acrid smell were no encouragement to enter.
“Not what you'd call homely is it?” commented Denner searching for a switch. “How 'bout some light in here?”
“Ah-well it's better it stays quite dark actually,” advised Falroy.
“Why?” asked Denner. “You got something' to hide?” He instantly regretted his quip while staring into the first of many wire-fronted pens at a pair of eyes belonging to an emaciated primate of some sort.
Falroy explained, “Some creatures are overly sensitive to light. –But, Lieutenant, this is all very unnecessary. I beg of you to allow me twenty-four hours to overhaul these activities and then you can come back and turn the ship inside out and upside down if you must, but I implore you - spare a moment's thought for the animals at least.”
“That's just what I've been doing all along, Doc. That's exactly why we're here.”
After some minutes gloomily witnessing a range of unlawful captives, questionable experiments and a dead monkey in a bell-shaped cage, by the time they reached the door of Enclosure 4 the Levinskis were incensed and outraged. Twice Olga had to quell her husband’s explosive anger but she failed to do so beyond the next great door that led to a darkened chamber awash with a pale green glow.
“Rick, look at this!” cried Franz peering beyond the transparent force-field of a biosphere. Within the murk, a skinny, half-naked, humanoid figure was blinking at them and twitching its gawking face.
Olga was disgusted. “It's a Rwali tribeman,” she said despicably. “Doctor Falroy, where’s your sense of decency and morality?”
The research director knew words were useless. He became shamefully remote, dreading whatever fate awaited him. He agonised over the turn of events and deplored his ever having agreed to Von Dorff's proposals. But they had come with a fresh bio-technological breakthrough that was illegally lifted from forcibly-closed research, and this had been the minister’s pièce de résistance.
It had all seemed so foolproof, he thought, while his unwelcome visitors lay waste his studies with contempt, and had been so water-tight having Alliance bureaucracy taken care of at a supremely high level. The colossal imperialist machine of the Alliance embraced a long history of political manipulation from within, and scandals of every magnitude had come and gone. Some came to light decades late, and some never did.
So it was with confidence, Falroy reflected gloomily, that he had become a willing partner. Fronted by a genuine research establishment there seemed little risk of discovery, while the potential rewards discussed were immense. Visions of a breakthrough of the millennium were cited and granted a specialist facility, and this had not only been assembled but recently had produced startling results according to encrypted reports he received.
With Alliance law being authoritarian and uncompromising, Falroy was quite certain he would be made a public example of together with Henri Von Dorff and Goriph Xilifus. Whilst pondering all of this and more he was almost oblivious to his surroundings as he followed the LR men through a swing door at the far end of the chamber.
The five of them were in lab-like surroundings sectioned off into sub-areas. The visitors reeled in shock and horror at the genetic creations and mutations beyond the safety of plas-glass cylinders. One creature appeared to be a cross between a man and a ghorapsid, genetically re-arranged and fused in a diabolical experiment.
Suddenly a furious Franz Levinski leapt at the research director and began violently shaking him by the neck. “Falroy, these bastard, cloned abominations are inhuman!” he bellowed, face turning purple as an alarmed Olga looked on. “What have you done? This is a sick violation of nature!”
Vargesson and Denner struggled to prise him away from the choking director. Eventually the zoologist relinquished his grip. “You’re finished, Falroy!” he raged, vengeful anger and hatred burning within. “Finished for ever!”
Olga rushed to take her husband’s arm before he let loose another salvo while a coughing, bedraggled Falroy tried to regain his breath. Vargesson let the incident pass without comment.
Leaving the attempted clones and other hideous creations, the group moved on to a new area and froze at the sight of a werewolf-like man seated at a monitor. He appeared not to notice anyone as Falroy explained that he had been a willing participant in a test that had gone horribly wrong. The hairy man turned his head and stared at the visitors blankly then resumed his study of the biosphere readouts on the screen.
Denner readied his needler as a precaution and Olga confronted Falroy. “Just what have you done here?” she demanded with remarkable composure.
“I…I cannot make excuses,” muttered Falroy at pains to meet anyone’s eyes. “This part of the operation was designed to procure ah, specimens for testing.”
“What sort of testing?” Denner asked turning pale.
"A kind of transference - based upon technology closed down by the Alliance but resurrected by ah, Mr Von Dorff.”
“Located where? Here?” quizzed Vargesson.
“Ah-not here, no.”
Franz stepped forward. “What are you talking about, Falroy? What sort of transference?”
“The aim was sourcing ghorapsid telepathy and ah, it was reputedly once tested on another entity. Normal constraints limit the work of the geneticist to re-shaping and cloning invertebrates and, where permitted, small animals.”
“You said another entity?” growled Franz impatiently.
Falroy backed away slowly and meandered aimlessly while speaking. “In medicine, therapy to replace defective or abnormal genes is an established science and we aimed to go one further using accelerators and preserved banks of DNA initially-”
“You’ve attempted to clone people,” insisted Olga distastefully. “All highly illegal and something science has long proved is unworkable in homo sapiens. You are a scientist, Doctor, and know that.”
“Yes,” concurred Falroy, “but impaired cell division due to short tolomeres seemed to have been resolved in certain tests. The chromosomes were seen to distribute evenly in the embryo cells and pass on an accurate coding, except that failure to replicate that successfully has led to ah, malformations…”
“Evidently,” retorted Olga, “because clones are by definition malformed, disease-ridden and age rapidly.”
“Which is why Human cloning saw a ban from the very first,” Franz added. “More than two hundred years ago cloning got out of control and had to be strictly controlled. Even a bio-engineered diet was found to be flawed, and hence the furore which arose from that.”
“Let me add an angle from Law Regulat experience,” Maw Denner said with a cursory glance over his transputer. “Any technology sufficiently persecuted doesn’t disappear - it only disappears from view. Goes underground”

An earlier chapter talks of miniature nanotech 'microbots' used for surveillance and eavesdropping. Right, I'm off now :scotty:
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 16:00 #14

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Space Bandit wrote:
iPhones already control people don't they?

Yes, but soon you could just have one inserted in your brain and do away with all that bothersome carrying...

Sign me up, muthafucka!!

:hypo:
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

-Buddha
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 08 Oct 2013 17:34 #15

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reading the op actually made me want to cry. A bit of an over emotional response perhaps but a natural one nonetheless.

I am not sure if cockroaches or other animals feel in the same way we do or whether they experience fear and pain as we do but I do believe that they have instincts that are every bit as strong as ours and that fucking with those instincts and causing harm for 'sport' is fucking inhumane.

Part of me cannot help but think what next and how this sort of technology and thinking is the top of one very steep slippery slope. Another part of me is repulsed by the idea that as humans we have this belief that we can do this sort of thing to another living creature just because it is a 'roach'.
Sometimes, if you stand on the bottom rail of a bridge and lean over to watch the river slipping slowly away beneath you, you will suddenly know everything there is to be known.

“Just living is not enough, one must have sunshine, freedom, and a little flower”
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 09 Oct 2013 02:39 #16

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Back in the day, this would have been a kid with a bug and a magnifying glass burning it for "fun".
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 09 Oct 2013 03:54 #17

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The line, "gives you a way of playing with living things", appears to be a poor description. Instead of "playing" I strongly suggest that the word should be "fucking".
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 09 Oct 2013 04:22 #18

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"torturing" would be the word imho

Just another example of the psychos amongst us who enjoy degrading, controlling and torturing.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 09 Oct 2013 11:43 #19

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i think you guys are over reacting to it. its not a mail order jeffrey dahmer kitten trepanition kit. its a roach.... for $99
my limbless friend will die alone
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Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Cockroaches, cyborgs and ethics. Where do you stand? 09 Oct 2013 11:59 #20

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Here's a scenario a cockroach with an ipad/iphone controlling a human with a chip implant in the sucker..my what fun i could finally get the bug out of system, and make a killing :scheme:
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