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TOPIC: David Icke debunked doc

Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 16:28 #41

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Steevo wrote:
i-baster wrote:
I agree with Space Bandito that you can`t really debunk a person. However I will be sure to watch the video when I make time. I like much of what Icke says although he does tend to quote others a lot so it is kind of like agreeing with a bunch of other people sometimes. I have an open mind and will report back here perhaps if I feel it is worth it.

I bet you cant watch the whole thing. I watched about 5 mins and realised that the narrator was a crackpot, and I then switched it off.

narrator aside was his research and findings acurate ,
its not part of the deal to be turned to christianity in order to watch it
the questions raised are valid in their own right

by picking on the maker of the vid you bypass all evidence and reaort to backrounds which have no relation to the findings ,
his personal agenda might be gods recruiter but it doesnt reflect in the likes of who helped icke weite books and were the core value of ickes works come from ,
he merely says from a christian pov that how does icke know the guys arent demons and
if true gods exist they are one and jesus
the religion hardly comes into it i found ,
and only apears towards the end so five mins in is poor place to give up watch until five mins till end and avoid religious bits alltogether lol
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 16:56 #42

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mushy wrote:
Steevo wrote:
i-baster wrote:
I agree with Space Bandito that you can`t really debunk a person. However I will be sure to watch the video when I make time. I like much of what Icke says although he does tend to quote others a lot so it is kind of like agreeing with a bunch of other people sometimes. I have an open mind and will report back here perhaps if I feel it is worth it.

I bet you cant watch the whole thing. I watched about 5 mins and realised that the narrator was a crackpot, and I then switched it off.

narrator aside was his research and findings acurate ,
its not part of the deal to be turned to christianity in order to watch it
the questions raised are valid in their own right

by picking on the maker of the vid you bypass all evidence and reaort to backrounds which have no relation to the findings ,
his personal agenda might be gods recruiter but it doesnt reflect in the likes of who helped icke weite books and were the core value of ickes works come from ,
he merely says from a christian pov that how does icke know the guys arent demons and
if true gods exist they are one and jesus
the religion hardly comes into it i found ,
and only apears towards the end so five mins in is poor place to give up watch until five mins till end and avoid religious bits alltogether lol

What I meant was, that BASED ON THE INFORMATION that the narrator was putting in his videos, he is obviously a crackpot.
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 17:18 #43

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feather wrote:
I believe you most certainly can debunk an individual.
In doing so you are ridiculing the claimant as well as discrediting their bunkum claim(s).


Edit:
It was bugging me so I looked it up to confirm/deny my belief. :emb: (yeah I'm anal like that) :umm:

de·bunk

1: Expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)
- the magazine that debunks claims of the paranormal

2: Reduce the inflated reputation of (someone), esp. by ridicule
- comedy takes delight in debunking heroes

Uh... ok.. never knew of second definition. So people can be debunked... debunk me now!
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 17:32 #44

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dubmeup wrote:
Though there's a few things that I'd add to that list, basically I am in total agreement on that point.
Yes SeanX would say that's just concentrating on the physical and he'd be right but the individual spiritual journey is in many many cases held back by the physical restrictions of the above. The things I would add would basically be about that inner journey.
Obviously you can go into all that consciousness stuff, and that's fine, I very much enjoyed Stanislav Grof's books on this subject. I'm not a big believer that we can 'imagine the world we want' into existence, though, we must surely take some practical steps in our lives. I applaud everyone who does so.

The reason I particularly object to Mr. White, usually I wouldn't bother saying anything, is that he promotes some ridiculous beliefs himself, yet feels qualified to attack the beliefs of others. Anyone can watch this video, which he recommends on his own site.

vimeo.com/10554921

I could only stick precisely twenty-three seconds of this nonsense, but let me quote from that:

"This is to all the born-again Christians who are struggling with gay desires".

I don't listen beyond that. Get Abs on here and ask him if he feels like watching any of Chris White's videos. I certainly don't. This is just bigotry wrapped up in some pseudo-Christian philosophy. I fully defend the right of these people to express these views as I believe in total free speech. I also fully defend my right to call them idiots.

As always, everyone else can make up their own mind.
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Last Edit: 31 Jul 2012 17:35 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 17:34 #45

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Forget the subject matter (David Icke), Chris White has no relevence in my life WHATSOEVER. I can't believe that Chris White's videos are apparently SO important in the "truth community" - I truly am puzzled by this.

But each to their own. I'm all for that :)
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 17:56 #46

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
I'm not a big believer that we can 'imagine the world we want' into existence, though, we must surely take some practical steps in our lives. I applaud everyone who does so.
Likewise.I think all that stuff is dangerous in a very real way. There tends to be the camp that thinks it's all about the inner reality and the camp that thinks it's about external stuff. I tend to sit at the balance point. I feel that both are totally necessary.
The reason I particularly object to Mr. White, usually I wouldn't bother saying anything, is that he promotes some ridiculous beliefs himself, yet feels qualified to attack the beliefs of others. Anyone can watch this video, which he recommends on his own site.

vimeo.com/10554921

I could only stick precisely twenty-three seconds of this nonsense, but let me quote from that:

"This is to all the born-again Christians who are struggling with gay desires".

I don't listen beyond that. Get Abs on here and ask him if he feels like watching any of Chris White's videos. I certainly don't. This is just bigotry wrapped up in some pseudo-Christian philosophy. I fully defend the right of these people to express these views as I believe in total free speech. I also fully defend my right to call them idiots.

Haven't looked into the chap myself but I deeply suspect that if I were to, I'd most likely get about as far as you did. Sounds like a dangerous fellow to me. I respect his right to not like homosexuality or whatever, that's his prerogative but if he's spouting the kind of shit I guess he is on subjects like that, he will have to respect my right to counter his bigotry.
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 18:03 #47

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dubmeup wrote:
Haven't looked into the chap myself but I deeply suspect that if I were to, I'd most likely get about as far as you did. Sounds like a dangerous fellow to me. I respect his right to not like homosexuality or whatever, that's his prerogative but if he's spouting the kind of shit I guess he is on subjects like that, he will have to respect my right to counter his bigotry.
At the risk of prejudicing your view, I think I know your perspective well enough to say that you shouldn't bother.

It just annoys me when these fundamentalist types sit there saying "everyone needs to find Jesus, and we need to cure people of their gay desires...oh, and we're fighting the NWO". Hold on, who wants to live in the world you envisage? I certainly don't.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 19:24 #48

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mushy wrote:
narrator aside was his research and findings acurate , ...

G'day Mushy.

That doesn't appear to be relevant to some mate. Instead there are posts filled with straw man arguments. :roll:

It's not like this information is difficult to check up on. A google search provides it easily enough. So, simply checking the first 10 minutes of the information provided, below is the transcript, the first part of the radio interview Icke did with Nicky Campbell, and some extra information about the origins of the 'New Age Movement' from H.P. Blavatsky, through her disciple Alice Bailey, who channeled 'Rakorski', which Icke himself claims to have done (among many others).

So why dismiss the information presented simply because Chris White is presenting it ?

Because he is presenting it, does that somehow invalidate it ?

Is something only factual if it is presented by someone that you like / think well of / adore / worship ?



Transcript:
David Icke Debunked

davidickedebunked.com/?page_id=13





New Age Nonsense - Round 2
The term New Age was used as early as 1809 by William Blake who described a belief in a spiritual and artistic "New Age" in his preface to Milton: a Poem; it was a concept originally formed by another Christian mystic Emanuel Swedenborg in the 18th century.

Some of the New Age Movement's constituent elements appeared initially in 19th century metaphysical movements: Spiritualism, Theosophy, and New Thought; also, alternative medicine movements chiropractic and naturopathy. These movements in turn have roots in Transcendentalism, Mesmerism, Swedenborgianism, and various earlier Western esoteric or occult traditions, such as the hermetic arts of astrology, magic, alchemy, and kabbalah. The term New Age was used in this context in Madame Blavatsky's book The Secret Doctrine, published in 1888.

The "Secret Doctrine" of H.P. Blavatsky has been hailed universally as providing the basis for all the foundational teachings of the new age. From Gurdjieff to Ramtha, from Alan Watts to David Spangler, From Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung to Wassily Kandinsky and his many successors, from Alice Bailey to Edgar Mitchell, from Manly Palmer Hall to William Irwin Thompson, from Rudolf Steiner to John White, from Edgar Cayce to Ken Wilber (Pretty much a whose who of 'New Age' pioneers) careful research has shown that the Secret Doctrine's approach to the perennial philosophy provides the scaffolding for the thrust of their work, and often for their main theses

Blavatsky was synonamous with The *Theosophical Society, as it was called, and it, (TTS) espoused the abolishment of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, promoting the unity of other world religions. They claimed that their teachings were revealed by “spirit” or elemental guides. They emphasized heavily the evolution of a self deified, master aryan society, and a one world “new age” religion and social order. In 1911, it established a new organization called the Order of the Star in the East, in order to prepare the world for the aforementioned "coming". Krishnamurti was named as its head, with senior Theosophists in various positions. Membership was open to anybody who accepted the doctrine of the coming of the World Teacher. Controversy erupted soon after, both within the Theosophical Society and without, in Hindu circles and the Indian press.

*Theosophy is the name Blavatsky gave to that portion of knowledge that she brought from the masters to the world. It comes from the term ‘Theosophia’ used by the Neoplatonists to mean literally 'knowledge of the divine'.

It was in April 1909 that Krishnamurti first met C.W. Leadbeater, who claimed clairvoyance. During his forays to the Theosophical estate's beach at the nearby Adyar river, Leadbeater had noticed Krishnamurti (who also frequented the beach with others), and was amazed by the "most wonderful aura he had ever seen, without a particle of selfishness in it". This strong impression was notwithstanding Krishnamurti's outward appearance, which, according to eyewitnesses, was pretty common, unimpressive, and unkempt. The boy was also considered "particularly dim-witted"; he often had "a vacant expression" that "gave him an almost moronic look". Leadbeater remained "unshaken" that the boy would become "a great teacher".

Krishnamurti was soon thereafter declared by Leadbeater to be the current “vehicle” for Lord Maitreya, and schooled accord-ingly within the Theosophical ranks. Annie Besant, English Theosophist and Indian Political Leader travelled extensively in Great Britain and the United States with her protege, Jiddu Krishnamurti, whom she announced as the new Messiah — a claim he later renounced. Besant had met Blavatsky in 1887 and embraced Blavatsky’s beliefs, which seemed to ignite a religious awakening within her. The Theosophical Society split into two branches after Blavatsky’s death in 1891, with Annie Besant as president of one of them..

Krishnamurti's image, as originally cultivated by the theosophists, "...was to be characterized by a well-polished exterior, a sobriety of purpose, a cosmopolitan outlook and an otherworldly, almost beatific detachment in his demeanor." And in fact, "...All of these can be said to have characterised Krishnamurti's public image to the end of his life." It was apparently clear early on that he "...possessed an innate personal magnetism, not of a warm physical variety, but nonetheless emotive in its austerity, and inclined to inspire veneration." However, as Krishnamurti was growing up, he showed signs of adolescent rebellion and emotional instability, chafing at the regimen imposed on him, and occasionally having doubts about the future prescribed him.

[Blavatsky’s housekeeper, Emma Cutting, demonstrated] how she and HPB had made a doll together, which they ... manipulated on a long bamboo pole in semi-darkness to pro-vide the Master’s alleged apparitions. Emma had also dropped “precipitated” letters on to Theosophical heads from holes in the ceiling, while her husband had made sliding panels and hidden entrances into the shrine room [adjoining HPB’s bedroom] to facilitate Blavatsky’s comings and goings and make possible the substitution of all the brooches, dishes and other objects that she used in her demonstrations [i.e., as purported materializations or “apports”]....

The Russian journalist V. S. Solovieff claimed to have caught [Blavatsky] red-handed with the silver bells which produced astral music [in séances].... Blavatsky confessed to Solovieff quite bluntly that the phenomena were fraudulent, adding that one must deceive men in order to rule them.

Hannah Newman, in an essay Called "Masters of the Blinding Light: What Jewish People Should Know About the New Age", reminds us that Hitler kept a copy of Blavatsky's 'The Secret Doctrine' by his bedside, ever since being introduced to its teachings by Dietrich Eckart and Karl Haushofer.

These two pictures speak for themselves really..

1Blavatsky R.jpg

Image016


Another player in the early New Age web is Alice Bailey. She was born on 16th June 1880 (As Alice LaTrobe Bateman) in Manchester, as the daughter of an engineer. After a cloistered upbringing she entered on a period of evangelical work with the British army, which took her to India. In 1907 she married Walter Evans, whom she had met while he was serving in the army in India, and they emigrated to America.

In America she discovered the works of Madame Blavatsky and became active in the Theosophical Society. Blavatsky's doctrine of occult Masters led her to identify a spirit that, she said, had guided her from the age of fifteen, with the Theosophical Kut Humi. In 1919 she said she was contacted by the spirit of another individual whom she called 'the Tibetan' and identified with the occult adept Djual Khool mentioned by Blavatsky. After some initial reluctance she agreed to be his amanuensis. The result was a series of books which she claims the Tibetan (whose name she spelt "Djwhal Khul") dictated through an inner voice, and which she wrote down word for word.

She also goes on to say:
"The Masonic Movement ... will meet the need of those who can, and should, wield power. It is the custodian of the law; it is the home of the Mysteries and the seat of initiation".
"It holds in its symbolism the ritual of Deity, and the way of salvation is pictorially preserved in its work. The methods of Deity are demonstrated in its Temples and under the All-seeing Eye the work can go forward.
"It is a far more occult organization than can be realized and is intended to be the training school for the coming advanced occultists ... in Masonry you have the three paths leading to initiation. As yet they are not used, and one of the things that will eventuate -- when the new universal religion has sway and the nature of esotericism is understood -- will be the utilization of the banded esoteric organism, the Masonic organism and the Church organism as initiating centers".
"These three groups converge as their inner sanctuaries are approached. There is no dissociation between the One Universal Church, the sacred inner Lodge of all true Masons, and the inner-most circles of the esoteric societies.

(Alice Bailey, The Externalization of the Hierarchy, Pages 14, 511, 513)

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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 20:11 #49

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Didn't Michael Tsarion rip a new asshole to this Chris White/nowheretorun guy? Or am I thinking of someone else? :bounce:
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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 20:51 #50

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I AM ALL I AM wrote:
mushy wrote:
narrator aside was his research and findings acurate , ...

G'day Mushy.

That doesn't appear to be relevant to some mate. Instead there are posts filled with straw man arguments. :roll:

It's not like this information is difficult to check up on. A google search provides it easily enough. So, simply checking the first 10 minutes of the information provided, below is the transcript, the first part of the radio interview Icke did with Nicky Campbell, and some extra information about the origins of the 'New Age Movement' from H.P. Blavatsky, through her disciple Alice Bailey, who channeled 'Rakorski', which Icke himself claims to have done (among many others).

So why dismiss the information presented simply because Chris White is presenting it ?

Because he is presenting it, does that somehow invalidate it ?

Is something only factual if it is presented by someone that you like / think well of / adore / worship ?



Transcript:
David Icke Debunked

davidickedebunked.com/?page_id=13





New Age Nonsense - Round 2
The term New Age was used as early as 1809 by William Blake who described a belief in a spiritual and artistic "New Age" in his preface to Milton: a Poem; it was a concept originally formed by another Christian mystic Emanuel Swedenborg in the 18th century.

Some of the New Age Movement's constituent elements appeared initially in 19th century metaphysical movements: Spiritualism, Theosophy, and New Thought; also, alternative medicine movements chiropractic and naturopathy. These movements in turn have roots in Transcendentalism, Mesmerism, Swedenborgianism, and various earlier Western esoteric or occult traditions, such as the hermetic arts of astrology, magic, alchemy, and kabbalah. The term New Age was used in this context in Madame Blavatsky's book The Secret Doctrine, published in 1888.

The "Secret Doctrine" of H.P. Blavatsky has been hailed universally as providing the basis for all the foundational teachings of the new age. From Gurdjieff to Ramtha, from Alan Watts to David Spangler, From Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung to Wassily Kandinsky and his many successors, from Alice Bailey to Edgar Mitchell, from Manly Palmer Hall to William Irwin Thompson, from Rudolf Steiner to John White, from Edgar Cayce to Ken Wilber (Pretty much a whose who of 'New Age' pioneers) careful research has shown that the Secret Doctrine's approach to the perennial philosophy provides the scaffolding for the thrust of their work, and often for their main theses

Blavatsky was synonamous with The *Theosophical Society, as it was called, and it, (TTS) espoused the abolishment of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, promoting the unity of other world religions. They claimed that their teachings were revealed by “spirit” or elemental guides. They emphasized heavily the evolution of a self deified, master aryan society, and a one world “new age” religion and social order. In 1911, it established a new organization called the Order of the Star in the East, in order to prepare the world for the aforementioned "coming". Krishnamurti was named as its head, with senior Theosophists in various positions. Membership was open to anybody who accepted the doctrine of the coming of the World Teacher. Controversy erupted soon after, both within the Theosophical Society and without, in Hindu circles and the Indian press.

*Theosophy is the name Blavatsky gave to that portion of knowledge that she brought from the masters to the world. It comes from the term ‘Theosophia’ used by the Neoplatonists to mean literally 'knowledge of the divine'.

It was in April 1909 that Krishnamurti first met C.W. Leadbeater, who claimed clairvoyance. During his forays to the Theosophical estate's beach at the nearby Adyar river, Leadbeater had noticed Krishnamurti (who also frequented the beach with others), and was amazed by the "most wonderful aura he had ever seen, without a particle of selfishness in it". This strong impression was notwithstanding Krishnamurti's outward appearance, which, according to eyewitnesses, was pretty common, unimpressive, and unkempt. The boy was also considered "particularly dim-witted"; he often had "a vacant expression" that "gave him an almost moronic look". Leadbeater remained "unshaken" that the boy would become "a great teacher".

Krishnamurti was soon thereafter declared by Leadbeater to be the current “vehicle” for Lord Maitreya, and schooled accord-ingly within the Theosophical ranks. Annie Besant, English Theosophist and Indian Political Leader travelled extensively in Great Britain and the United States with her protege, Jiddu Krishnamurti, whom she announced as the new Messiah — a claim he later renounced. Besant had met Blavatsky in 1887 and embraced Blavatsky’s beliefs, which seemed to ignite a religious awakening within her. The Theosophical Society split into two branches after Blavatsky’s death in 1891, with Annie Besant as president of one of them..

Krishnamurti's image, as originally cultivated by the theosophists, "...was to be characterized by a well-polished exterior, a sobriety of purpose, a cosmopolitan outlook and an otherworldly, almost beatific detachment in his demeanor." And in fact, "...All of these can be said to have characterised Krishnamurti's public image to the end of his life." It was apparently clear early on that he "...possessed an innate personal magnetism, not of a warm physical variety, but nonetheless emotive in its austerity, and inclined to inspire veneration." However, as Krishnamurti was growing up, he showed signs of adolescent rebellion and emotional instability, chafing at the regimen imposed on him, and occasionally having doubts about the future prescribed him.

[Blavatsky’s housekeeper, Emma Cutting, demonstrated] how she and HPB had made a doll together, which they ... manipulated on a long bamboo pole in semi-darkness to pro-vide the Master’s alleged apparitions. Emma had also dropped “precipitated” letters on to Theosophical heads from holes in the ceiling, while her husband had made sliding panels and hidden entrances into the shrine room [adjoining HPB’s bedroom] to facilitate Blavatsky’s comings and goings and make possible the substitution of all the brooches, dishes and other objects that she used in her demonstrations [i.e., as purported materializations or “apports”]....

The Russian journalist V. S. Solovieff claimed to have caught [Blavatsky] red-handed with the silver bells which produced astral music [in séances].... Blavatsky confessed to Solovieff quite bluntly that the phenomena were fraudulent, adding that one must deceive men in order to rule them.

Hannah Newman, in an essay Called "Masters of the Blinding Light: What Jewish People Should Know About the New Age", reminds us that Hitler kept a copy of Blavatsky's 'The Secret Doctrine' by his bedside, ever since being introduced to its teachings by Dietrich Eckart and Karl Haushofer.

These two pictures speak for themselves really..

1Blavatsky R.jpg

Image016


Another player in the early New Age web is Alice Bailey. She was born on 16th June 1880 (As Alice LaTrobe Bateman) in Manchester, as the daughter of an engineer. After a cloistered upbringing she entered on a period of evangelical work with the British army, which took her to India. In 1907 she married Walter Evans, whom she had met while he was serving in the army in India, and they emigrated to America.

In America she discovered the works of Madame Blavatsky and became active in the Theosophical Society. Blavatsky's doctrine of occult Masters led her to identify a spirit that, she said, had guided her from the age of fifteen, with the Theosophical Kut Humi. In 1919 she said she was contacted by the spirit of another individual whom she called 'the Tibetan' and identified with the occult adept Djual Khool mentioned by Blavatsky. After some initial reluctance she agreed to be his amanuensis. The result was a series of books which she claims the Tibetan (whose name she spelt "Djwhal Khul") dictated through an inner voice, and which she wrote down word for word.

She also goes on to say:
"The Masonic Movement ... will meet the need of those who can, and should, wield power. It is the custodian of the law; it is the home of the Mysteries and the seat of initiation".
"It holds in its symbolism the ritual of Deity, and the way of salvation is pictorially preserved in its work. The methods of Deity are demonstrated in its Temples and under the All-seeing Eye the work can go forward.
"It is a far more occult organization than can be realized and is intended to be the training school for the coming advanced occultists ... in Masonry you have the three paths leading to initiation. As yet they are not used, and one of the things that will eventuate -- when the new universal religion has sway and the nature of esotericism is understood -- will be the utilization of the banded esoteric organism, the Masonic organism and the Church organism as initiating centers".
"These three groups converge as their inner sanctuaries are approached. There is no dissociation between the One Universal Church, the sacred inner Lodge of all true Masons, and the inner-most circles of the esoteric societies.

(Alice Bailey, The Externalization of the Hierarchy, Pages 14, 511, 513)

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Re: David Icke debunked doc 31 Jul 2012 21:11 #51

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Steevo wrote:
mushy wrote:
Steevo wrote:
i-baster wrote:
I agree with Space Bandito that you can`t really debunk a person. However I will be sure to watch the video when I make time. I like much of what Icke says although he does tend to quote others a lot so it is kind of like agreeing with a bunch of other people sometimes. I have an open mind and will report back here perhaps if I feel it is worth it.

I bet you cant watch the whole thing. I watched about 5 mins and realised that the narrator was a crackpot, and I then switched it off.

narrator aside was his research and findings acurate ,
its not part of the deal to be turned to christianity in order to watch it
the questions raised are valid in their own right

by picking on the maker of the vid you bypass all evidence and reaort to backrounds which have no relation to the findings ,
his personal agenda might be gods recruiter but it doesnt reflect in the likes of who helped icke weite books and were the core value of ickes works come from ,
he merely says from a christian pov that how does icke know the guys arent demons and
if true gods exist they are one and jesus
the religion hardly comes into it i found ,
and only apears towards the end so five mins in is poor place to give up watch until five mins till end and avoid religious bits alltogether lol

What I meant was, that BASED ON THE INFORMATION that the narrator was putting in his videos, he is obviously a crackpot.

i thought you meant the the video since you said you only mannaged to watch five of it
i dont agree with all chris whites ideas but if information is checkable it has to be given consideration and in the case of icke and bailey etc it does seem icke was.peehaps influenced
by all those mentioned ,
if ickes only deffence is he was given.this information from voices in his head and not from anything he read then i cant think of any method of validation lies with his fans and him.himself to prove and without putting spin on msn articles or using opinion and possibilities
as evidence .

i want proof i can check david icke doesnt provide me with any and neither do his fans .

hey maybe im brainwashed or not awake or some shit like that lol
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