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TOPIC: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British

It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 11:21 #1

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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9385795/...ove-the-British.html
I've always prized British rudeness, says Cristina Odone - but in recent years, "insulting words or behaviour" have become a criminal offence.

By Cristina Odone

7:11AM BST 09 Jul 2012

I have lived in this country for 25 years now, yet still fail to grasp some basic rules. I was amazed, for instance, when I was threatened with a lawsuit earlier this year. On Question Time, I dismissed a protester against unpaid apprenticeship as “an ungrateful creature”. A lawyer gleefully tweeted that my “insult” was potentially a criminal offence.

I’d been living under two misapprehensions: first, that “creature” was an acceptable rebuke here; second, that I had a right to be rude. That right is under threat. I read with horror that a woman who told off a Muslim gentleman at a supermarket checkout was arrested. Cinnamon Heathcote-Drury, a photographer, watched as the man let his wife unload their trolley on her own, and informed him in no uncertain terms that his behaviour was un-British. She even offered to help the wife herself.

Miss Heathcote-Drury, cleared last weekend, admits that her words could have offended the couple. But it seems extraordinary that under Section 5 of the Public Order Act, “insulting words or behaviour” constitute a criminal offence. This leaves too much room for personal score-settling, not to mention paranoia: had this law been in place in the Thirties, a thin-skinned citizen of Slough could have sued John Betjeman. As it is, a teenager was arrested in 2008 for holding up a placard that called Scientology a cult.

I’ve always prized British rudeness. I relish the vicious attacks in the press on grandees from Bob Diamond to John Bercow; I love to watch Paxo pummelling a politician; and happily trade put-downs with friends, family and foes. Sometimes, it can slide into gratuitous humiliation – but that seems a small price to pay for the intoxicating freedom of rubbishing the powerful.

Thank goodness, an unlikely alliance of David Davis MP, Peter Tatchell and the Christian Institute are campaigning to change Section 5. Until they win, I’ll steer clear of calling anyone a “creature” again.

• Among the many unwelcome opinions I hold is my dislike of Annabel’s. The members-only nightclub in Mayfair has always struck me as more po-faced than posh. It may be chock-a-block with big names from Debrett’s, but there are too many old-timers dancing to cheesy pop songs (Michael Jackson’s Thriller is considered cutting-edge) for my liking.

Now, Annabel’s faces competition from Robin Birley, who has opened a new club around the corner. The Establishment views this as a direct challenge to Richard Caring, Annabel’s present owner, especially since Birley’s father set the place up back in the Sixties.

My tip for Birley, if he wants his new club to succeed, is to get Taki along. The best time I had at Annabel’s was when two women were vying for the playboy columnist’s attention. They shouted unprintable insults at one another (oblivious, it would seem, to Section 5). As for Taki, he tiptoed away from the rumpus in order to squire a third beauty on to the dance floor.

• Just when I’d given up on politicians, I meet one who leaves me in stitches. Stephen Pound, Labour MP for Ealing North, hosted a fund-raiser for the LSE (my husband’s alma mater) at the House of Commons this weekend, regaling the audience with anecdotes from his colourful past. A former shop steward, bus conductor, boxer and hospital porter, Pound has travelled the world and speaks Italian, French and Polish. He must be one of the few who can both quote from Ezra Pound’s Canti and chant Solidarity slogans.

How different from the rest of the professional politicians who fill the corridors of power! I didn’t go to LSE, but still found myself reaching for a chequebook. Another 10 minutes and I’d have handed over all my worldly goods. Another 20 and I’d have been voting Labour.

Personally, this woman and her ilk make me want to vomit, for various reasons, but I wondered what my fellow SZers made of her article?
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Last Edit: 19 Jul 2012 11:21 by Abs.
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 13:09 #2

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What pisses me off about the article is the whole idea that anyone has a 'right to be rude'.

I am increasingly coming to the belief that actually 'rights' are a man made construct that are a buzzword for avoiding responsibility.

She goes on about the 'right to be rude' but what that means is the ability to be rude unfettered. The ability to be rude with no consequences - well there are always consequences - we cannot sanitise our lives to the extent that we never have to take responsibility for our actions.

Personally I would prefer it if as a world we ensured that everyone has a right and access to fresh water, affordable and nutritious food, suitable shelter and clothing and access to corruption free medical care and education before we start worrying about whether or not we can be 'rude' towards others without consequence. It says a lot about the human mindset that we are more interested in telling others to 'grow a thick skin' or 'deal with it' rather then putting the energy and resources into ensuring the most basic of rights are being met for all.
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 13:30 #3

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thoreau wrote:

I am increasingly coming to the belief that actually 'rights' are a man made construct that are a buzzword for avoiding responsibility.

When used in the MSM or politics...yes :)
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 13:47 #4

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andyh wrote:
thoreau wrote:

I am increasingly coming to the belief that actually 'rights' are a man made construct that are a buzzword for avoiding responsibility.

When used in the MSM or politics...yes :)

I am not entirely sure that it is just the msm and politics anymore - I think that individuals nowadays use the 'term' in exactly the same way - as a result of msm and politics most probably - but it has seemed that over my lifetime people have become far more ego centric and reliant on others to hand them whatever it is they want or think they should have on a plate - which is no doubt in the interest of politicians and business - it irks me.

What is sad and depressing is that 'rights' should be a good thing but human nature as always fucks it up.
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 14:02 #5

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I think she's confusing the right to be rude with freedom of speech. We're all entitled to have opinions, beliefs and ideas that other people may find offensive, but I think we should at least make an effort to be considerate to one another.

That said, you can't please everyone all the time. People are bound to get offended by something someone says at some point.
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 14:26 #6

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thoreau wrote:
andyh wrote:
thoreau wrote:

I am increasingly coming to the belief that actually 'rights' are a man made construct that are a buzzword for avoiding responsibility.

When used in the MSM or politics...yes :)

I am not entirely sure that it is just the msm and politics anymore - I think that individuals nowadays use the 'term' in exactly the same way - as a result of msm and politics most probably - but it has seemed that over my lifetime people have become far more ego centric and reliant on others to hand them whatever it is they want or think they should have on a plate - which is no doubt in the interest of politicians and business - it irks me.

What is sad and depressing is that 'rights' should be a good thing but human nature as always fucks it up.

The freedom of speech, or the right to be rude to someone old chestnut, is usually used by individuals who don't really care about the effect their words will have....Then again...they probably do realise the effect.

Just lately I was accused, amongst other things, of trying to stifle someones right to be rude/free speech and was told that their right to say whatever they want was more important than me....nice eh!
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 14:39 #7

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LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
I think she's confusing the right to be rude with freedom of speech. We're all entitled to have opinions, beliefs and ideas that other people may find offensive, but I think we should at least make an effort to be considerate to one another.

That said, you can't please everyone all the time. People are bound to get offended by something someone says at some point.

I have a beautiful friend who has weight issues and isnt your stereotypical 'beauty' - she is however one of the most beautiful people I have ever met on the inside which to me and those who know her make her beautiful on the outside as well. I persuaded her to come to a club one night to celebrate a mutual friends birthday - that night some 'men' decided to mock her looks and weight loud enough for everyone to hear - Another time we were in a bakery and she ordered the last two strawberry tarts - a guy behind us turned to his party and said 'fat greedy bitch' - on both occasions she had done absolutely nothing to provoke the verbal attacks - other then not live up to those peoples ideas of what someone should look like.

Both these episodes contributed to her feeling even more self loathing - the people making the comments cannot have thought that they wouldnt hurt - did it only to put someone else down and were not responding in kind to her saying something 'rude' to them.

I do not understand this sort of mindset that people have - I do not understand why anyone would want to hurt someone for no reason - and I cannot for the life of me think why we should condone this sort of behaviour under the guise of 'a right to be rude'

The people in question were free to think what they like - once she was gone and could not be hurt by what was said they could have said it - yes it would be delaying their 'right to be rude' but frankly I cannot see why that is such a bad thing. Same goes for most things really - some people will be offended no matter how you put something across - others will reciprocate the respect and consideration shown to them even if the subject can be tricksy - best as far as I am concerned to not be delierately rude and offensive - unless ofc that is what you intended to be in the first place - and if that was your intent then suck up the consequences.

people grrrrr
Sometimes, if you stand on the bottom rail of a bridge and lean over to watch the river slipping slowly away beneath you, you will suddenly know everything there is to be known.

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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 14:44 #8

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The person who wrote this article is a creepy woman, with very mean views on "rights" .

The paragraph about some woman interfering is some peoples shopping ways is plain nosey! The guy may have had a bad back or arm or a hernia or something else very painful and the wife was helping out. ... so that bit annoyed me.

Also, the bit about the posh people dancing to music that she did not approve of. Aren't people allowed to dance to whatever music they like, whether they are posh or not. Dissing peoples musical tastes sucks.

This woman sounds like crap and a nasty person to me. :villagers: :uzi:
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 15:13 #9

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@ thoreau

I'm sorry to hear about your friend being treated like that. The shocking thing is that it's usually grown adults who are the worst culprits imo. They really should know better.

Some people do make honest foot-in-the-mouth type mistakes, but there really is no reason to be spiteful, that's another matter altogether. It seems to me sometimes that people have just forgotten how important it is to just be nice to each other. I suppose it's not cool these days maybe. Being free to express yourself doesn't mean you shouldn't still be civil to other people. Where do people like that get off? I don't understand it either.
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 15:26 #10

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Yes, politeness costs nothing as the saying goes.

There are unpleasant braindead arseholes around unfortunately...always have been always will be. They are in the minority though thankfully. Most people respond to good manners in kind I find.
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 19 Jul 2012 15:38 #11

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I think the quote in the OP messes with our minds by using the usual tactic of mentioning extreme situations as a means of defining something (in this case they are trying to define Freedom of Speech by saying it's about being rude to people). It's got a similar psychological effect as the Louis Theroux program called "The most hated family in America" which programs us to accept that there should be a limit to freedom of speech.
"This aint no technological breakdown, oh no, this is the road to hell!" ~~ Chris Rea
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 20 Jul 2012 16:42 #12

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Why is she calling somebody a creature?
If she called me a creature i would kick her in her hole :thumbup:
Just sounds like a silly person who's had a privileged life and passes the time by writing boring crap in the paper.
naivety attracts evil and evil attracts naivety
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 20 Jul 2012 16:45 #13

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humanspirit wrote:
Why is she calling somebody a creature?
If she called me a creature i would kick her in her hole :thumbup:
Just sounds like a silly person who's had a privileged life and passes the time by writing boring crap in the paper.

Because they had the nerve to protest against unpaid apprenticeships, which both has sod all to do with her and greatly offends her, apparently. :roll:
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Last Edit: 20 Jul 2012 16:46 by Abs.
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Re: It’s the right to be rude that makes me love the British 22 Jul 2012 01:38 #14

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Cristina Odone may well be an odious person for all i know, however, she has point...
Section 5 Public Order Act 1986 states:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64

Harassment, alarm or distress.

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.


This legislation is sweeping, draconian and has a chilling effect. There is no requirement to prove that the person intended any of the aforementioned likely consequences. They can be convicted under Section 5, regardless of their intention. Thus innocently intended words, behaviours or signs can result in a criminal record.

The first part of Section 5 is about criminalising disorderly behaviour, and words, behaviour or images that are threatening. Threats and disorderly behaviour are unacceptable. Criminalising them is therefore not unreasonable.

It is less clear that mere abuse warrants criminalisation. What constitutes abuse? Calling someone a “bloody fool” or a “drunken bastard” is abusive but should it be a crime? Different people have different interpretations regarding what level and forms of abuse should be lawful or unlawful. It’s a subjective judgement.

Likewise with insults. When does an insult cease to be a legitimate (if bad mannered) expression of opinion and become a matter for arrest and prosecution? Much satirical comedy and many polemical critiques of religion may be deemed insults by some people.

The second part of Section 5 is equally worrying. A crime is committed if a person is “likely” to be caused “harassment, alarm or distress”. There is no requirement to prove that anyone actually has been harassed, alarmed or distressed. The mere likelihood is sufficient to secure a conviction.

Continues here... www.petertatchell.net/civil_liberties/re...public-order-act.htm
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Last Edit: 22 Jul 2012 01:39 by LoneMyst.
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