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TOPIC: ''Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs?''

''Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs?'' 20 Aug 2012 19:45 #1

  • diamondgeezer
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I'm not sure quite what to make of this BBC news magazine article (its the 150th anniversary of the boat trip (pun intended) that apparently inspired the book btw).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19254839

The first part of the article is interesting (and predictable) enough...questioning whether or not the story was inspired by drug-related experiences etc. But it then moves onto the subject of Charles Dodgson's (Lewis Carroll's) sexuality...
The shadow hanging over anyone reading the story is the issue of Carroll's sexuality. A successful photographer, many of his surviving shots are of children, often semi-dressed or naked.

To many modern minds, a man who regularly formed friendships with young girls is inherently suspicious.

"Lewis Carroll's personal life intrigues adult readers because Alice in Wonderland is a text for children but the notion that the author photographed, however innocently, young girls in a state of undress is, to our modern eyes, unpalatable," says Worthington.

"That Alice was based on a child that Carroll knew adds yet another layer of interest, or suspicion, depending on how you look at it."

But Carroll was living at a time when childhood innocence was being forged, influencing how children were represented in 19th Century literature aimed at them.

Carroll's interest in young female innocence is explained by some of the experts as one that invoked desire, but not necessarily sexual.

Jenny Woolf, author of The Mystery of Lewis Carroll, agrees with this theory.

"Girls offered him a non-judgemental and non-sexual female audience and he opened up to them. They loved him and he found it a relief to be with them.

"Although he was attracted to women, celibacy was a condition of Carroll's job [a condition imposed on certain Oxford academics at the time] and he believed that having sex was against God's wishes for him."

There are plenty of experts who find his interests harder to explain and it is inevitable that this knowledge will inform what readers take from the story.

And there's this...
Nonce and nonsense

Carroll's Jabberwocky is one of the great nonsense poems in English, scattered with so-called "nonce" words - coined for one occasion only:

So what are the BBC trying to say?

Looks quite libelous to me. Thoughts?
truth-zone.co.uk/ - the other place...

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Re: ''Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs?'' 20 Aug 2012 19:57 #2

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That "nonce" bit is quite peculiar, dg. Certainly, had I been editing this story, I would have thought twice about using that particular word to describe something.

I suppose it could be eluding to the details of the article? Bit of a stretch though, imo.
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

-Buddha
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Re: ''Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs?'' 20 Aug 2012 20:11 #3

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I've always loved "Alice" and there have been times when I kinda worried about his "intentions" towards little girls but I certainly don't think there is any evidence that he was inappropriate(and I hope he wasn't; would totally ruin "Alice" for me :mad: ). It does seem like there is some reference to drug use but perhaps that's just a misinterpretation.

Maybe the themes of nonsense in the story are more of a comparison of children and their imaginations/sense of wonder compared to adults who have had that kind of "fanciful" thinking programmed out of them. The only reason I say that, is because reading this post and article brought to mind a magnet I have. The quote:
"There's no use in trying," Alice said, "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen.
"When I was your age, I always it it for half an hour a day.
Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Anyway, that's just something off the top of my head. Kinda funny how "matter of fact" Alice is during her very, strange adventures in Wonderland.
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."
Jimmy Stewart in "Harvey"
Last Edit: 20 Aug 2012 20:12 by K-Bone.
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Re: ''Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs?'' 20 Aug 2012 20:57 #4

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Carroll had an incredible imagination, the fact that his works are still spoken about with reverence to this day is testimony alone of that.

On the drugs front. I believe we have a tendency to forget that heroin, cocaine, etc were freely available over the counter at that time, for everyday ailments without a doctor having to be involved. Conan Doyle wrote about his character Sherlock Holmes using opiates to aid concentration. It was commonplace.

Carroll was also a photographer and it is from this area that the paedophile suspicions arise.
Imo again we need to understand the context of photography at that time. Artists were the first to jump at this new medium, it was faster, cheaper and, some would have argued, a superior means of capturing portraits, landscapes and tableaux vivants, 'living pictures'. This was an unimaginable technological leap at the time.

I am of the opinion that what Carroll did with his photography was to transfer the poses and visual language from the art tradition of draped figures, nymphets, cherubs etc to his work with these children.
I have not seen one of his images yet where the child/children looked in any way intimidated by him. By all accounts they loved being around him.

Of course we could all argue he was a bit stupid to put himself in that position. That would be hard to dismiss. I just have a sensation that he appreciated the imaginations of children and they were enthralled by his.

Obviously there is no way of being 100% certain but the fact that none of these children reported abuse when they grew older carries some weight as well for me.

The attempted tie-in between nonce and nonsense is pretty damn desperate journalism.

I have used the Jabberwocky at least three times with kids. It was never anywhere near the same each time because everything in that poem is up for definition and therefore brilliant for letting kids imaginations off the leash.

For example.
Take the first stanza and read it in a chirpy, cheery tone.

`Twas brillig,
and the slithy toves.
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.


Now read it again in a whispery, creepy, scary tone.
It works both ways because nothing is actually defined.


Sorry for the extended gibbering. :emb:
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Re: ''Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs?'' 20 Aug 2012 21:18 #5

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The attempted tie-​in between nonce and non­sense is pretty damn des­per­ate jour­nal­ism

Yep my thoughts too. & when taken in context with the rest of the article...its general tone..

Poor, desperate journalism at best....outright crap defamatory journalism at worst. Would the Beeb have published such an article about a famous person still alive, with access to a good lawyer?

I rather doubt it.
truth-zone.co.uk/ - the other place...

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Re: ''Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs?'' 20 Aug 2012 21:30 #6

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Even when I was typing out my speel above I found myself deleting lines like "I think he just got and loved kids" or "he knew how to appeal to the children's innocent, fertile imaginations" etc because it would be viewed in the context of the allegations hinted at.

It was much harder to scribble my thoughts because, either they would be filled with double entendre or perhaps seen as defending or excusing a paedophile.

Ropey stuff without concrete evidence and no, they would never have gotten away with that if he were alive.
Presumably they had more on Jimmy Saville and they still bottled it until after he popped his clogs.
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