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TOPIC: putting the world to right.

Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 13:15 #201

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its just a promise of apples
my limbless friend will die alone
a torso of flesh upon the throne

Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 13:21 #202

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Exactly bat, the promise of future apples.
Which ties in to the bit about banning futures markets. Not much point banning them if the currency itself is built on the promise of future apples.

The whole debt based system is built on reliance on unlimited economic growth way beyond the needs of the people. That inevitably leads to a lowering of ethical standards in business as resources diminish, drives consumerism and built in obsolescence and helps make us crap.

Any 'sound' currency can't be debt based. Do we all agree on that?
Last Edit: 09 Dec 2012 13:39 by dubs.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 13:26 #203

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it's easy to bring down a bank if people were so inclined. All you need to do is withdraw your money (or apples :conf: )
Last Edit: 09 Dec 2012 13:26 by dawnbreak.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 13:29 #204

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Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Like i said I really don't understand it, I don't know how accurate or whatever your analogy is, tbh I don't think it is considering how complex the process seems to be, what do you think of Steve Keen?

It is perfectly accurate.
Its fractional reserve 101 beginning with the central bank.

What you have to do now is take your 2 apples and deposit them in the high street bank and magically more apples appear out of nowhere! These guys don't even have an orchard :D

BUT...they're only coming if you pay them back more apples...so yep, you go right back and borrow more bloody apples!

Soon the world is awash with apples all over the fekking place but all they are doing is landing right back in the apple orchard with a few in the pockets of the leaders and slivers of apple skin and cores for everyone else.

Because there's so many apples all over the place the 'market' now says apples are worth less because there's so many of them (despite them all going back in the orchard from whence it all started) and despite the vast majority of people having no bloody apples.

Now you might think this is simple but this is a very good analogy.

It is nothing to do with ayn rand or ron paul, it is right out of the bank of englands own handbook.

I don';t think it is, you don't really explain how apples go from being "all over the place" or created out of thin air, to there being a shortage of apples and nobody having any. How did that happen?

By depositing apples in the high st banks :)
The high st banks are allowed to loan out more money than they actually have on deposit.
As dawn says above, only new debt is created. Its not actually 'money' because its all just debt. They are promising apples.

Its a crazy system, with basically most business in debt. Banks secure loans against things of real value eg land, housing etc and they become owners of the real property against money loaned out that they never had in the first place!

The banks do not work for their money, they add nothing to society, they are like vampires.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 13:34 #205

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dubmeup wrote:
Exactly bat, the promise of future apples.
Which ties in to the bit about banning futures markets. Not much point banning them if the currency itself is built on the promise of future apples.

The whole debt based system is built on reliance on unlimited economic growth way beyond the needs of the people. That inevitably leads to a lowering of ethical standards in business as resources diminish, drives consumerism and built in obsolescence and helps make us crap.

Any 'sound' currency can't be debt based. Do we all agree on that

Exactly, for the system to work we must have infinite growth forever and infinite inflation.
Its complete nuts ofc, its mathematically impossible. Politicians have accepted FR banking long ago IMHO because they are inept , irresponsible lazy assholes. They do not want the responsibility of a treasury so they have outsourced it.

Just like they privatize and outsource everything else.

Meanwhile they continue to tax us to pay back bloody debt which was created out of thin air in the first place!
All that is ever asked is how much something will cost in terms of debt. Politicians no longer ask the question 'do we have the resources?'.

Every single politician I have met I have asked them where money comes from and so far not a single one of them knew.
This to me says everything I need to know, it is basically about the blind leading the blind while bankers laugh at us.

EDIT: I agree 101% money cannot be debt based.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
Last Edit: 09 Dec 2012 13:35 by andyh.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 13:41 #206

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Might be a good time for a show of hands.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 14:24 #207

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Hi Andy thanks for taking the time.

SO we see the allegory is irrelevant, why are people putting apples in a high st bank and not eating them or planting apple trees?
Its a crazy system, with basically most business in debt. Banks secure loans against things of real value eg land, housing etc and they become owners of the real property against money loaned out that they never had in the first place!
Surely they did own the money they loaned out if everybody was putting money in their bank?
Once you put money in a bank it's no longer yours, but you would have a contract entitling you to withdraw the value you deposited at any time, a bank will always be liable for any deposits made despite the fractional reserve system, but they also take control of money deposited and invest it etc as you know, so it's not quite true to say "it's money loaned out that they never had".
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 14:40 #208

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No gue. It's absolutely true to say they can and do lend money they never had. And that we then pay interest on it.
It doesn't seem you get what a fr system does.
Last Edit: 09 Dec 2012 14:41 by dubs.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 14:52 #209

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In most legal systems, a bank deposit is not a bailment. In other words, the funds deposited are no longer the property of the customer. The funds become the property of the bank, and the customer in turn receives an asset called a deposit account (a checking or savings account). That deposit account is a liability of the bank on the bank's books and on its balance sheet. Because the bank is authorized by law to make loans up to a multiple of its reserves, the bank's reserves on hand to satisfy payment of deposit liabilities amounts to only a fraction of the total which the bank is obligated to pay in satisfaction of its demand deposits.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_Banking
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 09 Dec 2012 14:54 by Guevarista.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:01 #210

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dubmeup wrote:

the problems with currency stem from its management.
all sovereign states are entitled to create their own currency.
very few do and those that do tend to get bombed.
reason being that a private banking network has global control of the creation and supply of currency.
this network of banks are for profit of course.
not only can they charge interest on the creation of currency but under fractional reserve they can lend out virtual money that they dont have and charge interest on that too.

global boom and bust is a means of the banking network gaining real world wealth and furthering centralisation of power at an alarming rate. land, homes, farms, factories, countries......all going to the bankers


so the solution. i would like us to try and achieve a consensus starting from this 'solution'.

the very notion of making money from money to be chucked in the bin (usury, fr, bonds, all of it) sovereign states print their own money, be it physical or digital or both. they then manage the supply of money in balance with the need of the people to ensure that there is always just enough to pay for everything including investment in infrastructure etc.

Ten pages later and there is no talk of how the people who manage the currency will be removed.

All the ideas in this thread don't mean shit until there is a change in the people who manage the currency.
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:04 #211

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Exactly overthrow the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:07 #212

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I share your frustration ra but as sz consensus threads go, this one isn't doing too bad.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:10 #213

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Guevarista wrote:
Exactly overthrow the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

And replace it with? Are you getting this thread yet gue?
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:18 #214

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dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Exactly overthrow the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

And replace it with? Are you getting this thread yet gue?
Yes it's the usual sloganism and rhetoric that you get from the Ron Paulites.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:34 #215

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dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Exactly overthrow the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

And replace it with? Are you getting this thread yet gue?

Like Andy said grass­roots and co-​op or other barter system of exchange.

But all these options are already available for people.

If people don't like the system live in the 3rd world.

For people who like the system stay in the western world.

It's really nothing to overanalyze...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:36 #216

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Guevarista wrote:
Hi Andy thanks for taking the time.

SO we see the allegory is irrelevant, why are people putting apples in a high st bank and not eating them or planting apple trees?
Its a crazy system, with basically most business in debt. Banks secure loans against things of real value eg land, housing etc and they become owners of the real property against money loaned out that they never had in the first place!
Surely they did own the money they loaned out if everybody was putting money in their bank?
Once you put money in a bank it's no longer yours, but you would have a contract entitling you to withdraw the value you deposited at any time, a bank will always be liable for any deposits made despite the fractional reserve system, but they also take control of money deposited and invest it etc as you know, so it's not quite true to say "it's money loaned out that they never had".

God above how many times do you need this explaining Gue?
What doesn't make sense to you exactly?

Banks loan out more money than they have on deposit. This HAS to mean that they are loaning out money they do not have.
What is so difficult to comprehend about that? The fact perhaps that its so mind bogglingly insane that they cannot be doing it despite the evidence that shows it to be true perhaps?

The men who penned the books you have an obsession with grew up in a world that did not have FR banking. They are so irrelevant now it isn't worth mentioning tbh.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:38 #217

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Guevarista wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Exactly overthrow the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

And replace it with? Are you getting this thread yet gue?
Yes it's the usual sloganism and rhetoric that you get from the Ron Paulites.

Sloganism and rhetoric that is logical. Out with 1 puppet and in with another. Good job rover, want a doggy biscuit?
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:39 #218

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.......... wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Exactly overthrow the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

And replace it with? Are you getting this thread yet gue?

Like Andy said grass­roots and co-​op or other barter system of exchange.

But all these options are already available for people.

If people don't like the system live in the 3rd world.

For people who like the system stay in the western world.

It's really nothing to overanalyze...

I wouldn't say 3rd world but certainly try and live elsewhere or rural and get self sufficient etc.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:40 #219

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.......... wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Exactly overthrow the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

And replace it with? Are you getting this thread yet gue?

Like Andy said grass­roots and co-​op or other barter system of exchange.

But all these options are already available for people.

If people don't like the system live in the 3rd world.

For people who like the system stay in the western world.

It's really nothing to overanalyze...

Can't see me ever going with a principle of if you dont like it, fek orf tbh ra ;)
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Re: putting the world to right. 09 Dec 2012 15:43 #220

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.......... wrote:
dubmeup wrote:

the problems with currency stem from its management.
all sovereign states are entitled to create their own currency.
very few do and those that do tend to get bombed.
reason being that a private banking network has global control of the creation and supply of currency.
this network of banks are for profit of course.
not only can they charge interest on the creation of currency but under fractional reserve they can lend out virtual money that they dont have and charge interest on that too.

global boom and bust is a means of the banking network gaining real world wealth and furthering centralisation of power at an alarming rate. land, homes, farms, factories, countries......all going to the bankers


so the solution. i would like us to try and achieve a consensus starting from this 'solution'.

the very notion of making money from money to be chucked in the bin (usury, fr, bonds, all of it) sovereign states print their own money, be it physical or digital or both. they then manage the supply of money in balance with the need of the people to ensure that there is always just enough to pay for everything including investment in infrastructure etc.

Ten pages later and there is no talk of how the people who manage the currency will be removed.

All the ideas in this thread don't mean shit until there is a change in the people who manage the currency.

You can have different people managing currency but the end result is the same if its the same system used.
You can put in a castro type guy in the UK right now, millions will starve in the streets because the UK is not self sufficient.
It will not be able to trade with the other countries as they still use the FR banking system so it will have to keep the FR banking system ergo changing the person/s changes nothing.

You would have to replace ALL governments at the same time, such a thing is even more laughable than expecting to see people so much as understand how business taxation and FR banking works and thats hard enough.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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