Questions for people of all different faiths including Atheist regarding what is perceived to be afterlife.

Is a difference between a person shooting themselves in the head vs someone else shooting them in the head?

Or intentionally overdosing vs Accidentally overdose?

Or jumping off a cliff vs falling off a cliff?

Is it not all the same outcome?

Will a person reincarnate and be less popular in the next life?

Does God punish them and give them worse genetics the next time around?

What about all the innocent kids who get shot and killed what happens to them?

Good questions, I've often wondered about those things,
If suicide is a sin according to most religions, what constitutes suicide?

I smoke like a chimney and eat bad food, is that suicide?
what if I walked into an airport and waved around a fake gun, would that be suicide?

I certainly don't know.

I think we think the difference is intent.

I can't for the life of me imagine what would have to happen to me to contemplate suicide. If I'd got that low I hope I'd still be aware that there's probably only one direction life can go from there!

RealAmerican wrote:
On the subject of whether God punishes suicides: well the Church catechism comes down on the "no".

So contrary to coffe table theology, no suicide does not send the soul straight to Hell.

But it does not in any way condone suicide.


oioioi's posting of this really does capture the ethical question of suicide beautifully



Thanks oi

Thank Scroobious, he da man!

This Lit/Linguistic graduate is in awe, I tell you.

I could do an entire thread talking about how technically briilliant he is.

Our own Larkin/Auden and that is no feeble comparison.

But why bother to reveal something that is so self-evident?

He would tell me he is "just a band", anyway,

In case anyone's wondering "Who?" allow him to make his own introdiction

At the risk of tangent and hijacking and taking the conversation from the morbid to the sublime, I will post this.



Blame oi for making this obligatory

I would like to thank oioioi for bringing the Scroobius one into my awareness! Until a couple days ago I'd never heard of him and now I am able to enjoy his skillful, rhyming, flowing talent anytime I like via YouTube!! Thanks a guhzillion, Oi!!

And I'd have to agree with what oioioi said about the intent thing in regards to the questions posed in the OP.

martg wrote:
Yea, that's the same thing as if an alcoholic drinks himself to death intentionally or accidentally it's the same fate either way so does god judge him differently on his intention? The reason i am having such a problem with this is many people believe that when a young kid get's killed in a random act of gun violence it's because he did something bad in a past life and the karma caught up with him. Thats what alot of religious people honestly believe. I just have a problem with thinking that when a 5 year old kid gets run over by a car and killed or a bomb gets dropped on his house it was was because he was a bad person in a past life. Or when a person that suffers from some terrible injury or illness commit's suicide the next life for them will be even worse and they will be damned by god.

These are seriously controversial questions most people just won't talk about...

RealAmerican wrote:
Actually people do, and the fact that you are unfortunate enough not to know that, is testament to the false "optmism" of modern culture. Because there is comfort in knowin you are not alone in the the questions that you are asking. The big questions of life, death, justice, injustice, joy and suffering. This is exactly where art, music, literature, philosophy and yes, religion come in.

For example: Oscar Wilde' Ballad of Reading Jail:

Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!

Some kill their love when they are young,
And some when they are old;
Some strangle with the hands of Lust,
Some with the hands of Gold:
The kindest use a knife, because
The dead so soon grow cold.

And then you talked of smoking

So The Smiths sang this

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death"

And for music and dance, this is just this



and in religion look up the Christian de Cherge' in my avatar:

He wrote this in the face of his death:

If it should happen one day – and it could be today – that I become a victim of the terrorism that now seems to encompass all the foreigners living in Algeria, I would like my community, my church, my family, to remember that my life was given to God and to Algeria; and that they accept that the sole Master of all life was not a stranger to this brutal departure.

I would like, when the time comes, to have a space of clearness that would allow me to beg forgiveness of God and of my fellow human beings, and at the same time to forgive with all my heart the one who will strike me down.

I could not desire such a death; it seems to me important to state this: How could I rejoice if the Algerian people I love were indiscriminately accused of my murder?

My death, obviously, will appear to confirm those who hastily judged me naïve or idealistic: “Let him tell us now what he thinks of it!” But they should know that…for this life lost, I give thanks to God. In this “thank you,” which is said for everything in my life from now on, I certainly include you, my last-minute friend who will not have known what you are doing…I commend you to the God in whose face I see yours. And may we find each other, happy “good thieves” in Paradise, if it please God, the Father of us both.

mikey mikey wrote:




I really like your post mikey, but I did not care so much for that video.

The part that bugged me was when he talked about parents who want the best for you.

That is not always the case. I don't know if this guy was talking to someone in particular, but if he wasn't I think that is a foolish thing to say because it would make someone who did not have that feel even worse. I thought this guy must be living a charmed life if he believes that, but then I gave him the benefit of the doubt and thought he might be speaking to someone in particular. There was still something about him that I didn't jive with though.

noseymutegirl wrote:
I understand what you are saying and I did not wish to cause you distress, but yes I do think that it is a personal poem: the last stanza is clearly an indication that it is to his partner, or more likely the of the person he his writing on bealhf of.

It begins "but what about me?"

Suicide or thee inncalnation to do so, can, imho, only be discussed on a case by case basis. In that case, I believe the poet was doing and saying the right thing. Speaking directly to the person. Not in general. But that does not mean that one cannot relate to his words.

I hope that this puts his poem in a better pespective.

mikey mikey wrote:
Does God punish Abortions or any other form of murder?

Are we all just the creation of our parents egg & sperm in a "survival of the fittest" world?

That would lead many to believe we are all just here on Earth to have fun and enjoy life.

Which would logically explain the selfishness and injustice on Earth.

That does, thank you dearest, and I wasn't even distressed! I was just thinking about all the orphans, foster kids shuttled around, those who were severely abused, and on and on to whom his words would be meaningless, and who might be the most prone to suicidal thoughts since their foundation is cracked to begin with.

But, the fact that he is a poet, and that this was a spoken word type of thing it makes much more sense.

Thank you for your kind response.

RealAmerican wrote:
I came to the realisation some time ago that sefishness and injustice punishes itself.

Every crime can be forgiven.

But it is the unrepentent soul that causes its own punishment.

Basically, mercy and justice meet at repentance and forgiveness.

mikey mikey wrote:
I really don't know anymore Mikey the older i get the more it seems sefishness and injustice goes unpunished.

At least for the people at the very top.

It results in your pulse stopping and you moving on to the next plain of existence. If you didn't learn the lesson you were supposed to learn, you get to come back.
At least in my opinion.

StarsChildren wrote:
I'm just curious how you came up with this theory and what is the next plain of existence?

Considering how few people are really awake in this world not very many people would be moving on...imo

Im really confused here...

RealAmerican wrote:
I'll try and explain it as clearly as I can with the splitting head I have

In my beliefs there are something like 9 plains of existence, kind of like layers, or stairs, or dimensions. Earth, the physical plain is the first (religions would refer to it, the lowest plain/Earth, as hell). From there you have what some would refer to as heaven, which is the second plain of existence, lots of learning to be done there and it's like a weigh-station or pit stop for those whose physical body dies and their spirit needs somewhere to go (also there exists an in between area, the area between the plain (heaven) and this one (hell) where spirits can get lots, it's not really a plain, but kind of an in between limbo area). Then you have a 3rd, 4th, 5h, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th plain of existence. Then you have the source, like scientists and astronomers would look at the center of the universe, a central source...where all life and existence comes from.

Now each one of these plains, 1 through 9, have a task to be completed. A lesson to be learned at each of these steps. Ultimate goal being to reach the source, the beginning.

The first lesson/task must be completed on this plain of existence, Earth/hell...when you die your spirit moves on to the next one but it doesn't get to complete the next task unless you completed it here before you died, you can stay there for as long as you want before you reincarnate here to give it another try. While you are there you are free to study and learn, experience things there, but unless the first task has been completed you are not allowed to begin the second. And right after you die your spirit goes through transition, can take a few days (Earth time) to a few months to work through the transition from physical world/1st plain to spirit world/2nd plain depending on how much you have to work through (kind of like rehab). You get reincarnated here until you complete the first task.

The second lesson/task has two options available, it can be completed on the 2nd level (heaven) or here on Earth/1st level (hell). You can go back and forth between these two plains only until you have completed the 2nd task.
The third lesson/task has three options available, it can be completed on the 3rd, 2nd, or 1st levels. Fourth, 4 options, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st levels. Fifth the same way (level 5 or any of the lower levels), 6 same, 7 same, 8 and 9 same too...you can complete them on the level your at or any of the lower levels. Once all have been completed you, your soul, gets to return to the source (I haven't figured out what you get to do there yet ).
The more tasks you complete, if you choose to reincarnate here for each of them like some (Buddhists monks like the Dali Lama for example do this), the more you get to remember (past lives, the other side/2nd level, etc...). If you're working on the first task, you remember nothing as you reincarnate and have to start all over again with just instinct or soul memory to guide you (not to be confused with cell memory/genetic memory that is passed down through genetics/DNA). But if you've completed the 1st task, and have chosen to work on the second on this level, you get to bring some of the memory back with you. The more you complete the more memories you can bring back with you...you don't get your brain washed and thrown back in the mix like a blank slate.

Now, how did I come up with this? Don't ask as I don't really have an explanation I can give. But regardless of any explanation, it "feels" right to me, if you know what I mean.