Mikey:That's not quite what I think, I also don't think either were secretly practising or believing in a religion, out of interest what isn't revisionism then, perhaps saying that Stalin and Pol Pot's religious purges were "ideologically" motivated?

Do you see what I mean using the term religious thought? It doesn't necessarily relate to a particular religion or religious system, there are many neo nazi's, many on the Left, many in the world full stop who think religiously, in black and white terms of good and bad, I've heard agnostic spiritualist's and anarcho atheists suggest large amounts of people should be wiped out, it's this idea there is a right way things should be as ordained from on high, or some human or moral order to the universe as defined independent of religious institutions but based on religious thought, the idea that order is lacking on earth now due to the evil ones etc.

Think how dominant religion has been since the Neo Lithic revolution and development of Cattle, (you do believe the earth is older than 10,,000 years right, I know your religious but don't think you're dumb), it's played a huge part in the development of civilization, our languages, morals, perspectives, education systems etc etc, the way we interact with the world, and the way we experience the world, I'd say it's only been 20 or 30 years in the UK that religion has been absent in the state education system, even now remnants remain but it's getting fairly clear to most people it's quite obvious there is no actual god, or natural heirarchy or after life, it's a comfortable belief in an uncomfortable reality, i think that's what murder comes down to really, defense of the tribe, fear of outsiders, nationalistic cultural bias, sustaining one's delusions against other potentially threatening delusions?

Look at how religiously minded the Bible Bashing Colonists to America were, they thought god lead them to the new world, look how brutal they were and self righteous despite the atrocities they committed in the name of their god, there's a recurring theme in the last few thousand mikey mate, I'm sorry, I don't hold you responsible, or think less of you for reforming the doctrine along more acceptable lines for you personally, I think that's a good thing really.

andyh wrote: Exactly Fresco's work is an appeal to a man of steel and unlimited resources (Lex Luthor??) to implement his ideal form of western civilization, he has a personal idea of what is wrong and what is right, instead of scientifically analysing the subject at hand, human civilization, or contributing to that tradition, he gives you a glimpse of what "it should be", it rings true to most people's sense of fairness but serves as little more than a spectre that shines a terrible light on the masses of "fucked up people", (or minority of psychopaths/jews) who make the ideal unobtainable, the logical conclusion stares you in the face really, to paraphrase ol Joe:
"Death solves all problems - no man, no problem."

It would be a "just war" too as Fresco and many others suggest the entire planet is at threat from modern society; this "fucked up people in general" and or the minority of psychopaths, the damage and suffering averted would surely justify the means in line with the Doctrines of Early Church fathers?

Guevarista wrote:
I wouldn't say a man of steel, any single nation state government could easily accomplish it.
Certainly mere initial research would be no big deal. They probably spend more on toner cartridges.

I'm yet to see owt suggesting fresco supports mass murder......

I'm also yet to see anything suggesting those that are religious become mass murderers.......

The things you read on forums eh.

I also haven't seen anything suggesting that those who are religious become mass murderers, so I'm glad we agree here dub

Did you consider my poorly conveyed point earlier in the thread that religion, religious thought, superstitious, or idealistic interpretation of reality is/was a phase of Human thought, culture, knowledge from which really only recently we have begun to emerge, and as such there will be cultural and institutional relics embedded within the culture conserving and reinventing those ideas?
Again poorly conveyed story, I'm sorry.

andyh wrote: I think TVP would have to be international, it's basically an international socialist utopia, where profit motivation and private ownership are reformed along more communitarian lines in a futuristic 2 tier society having nomadic and rural tribes and a city dwelling overclass

TVP is what you see when you watch Judge Dredd after eating four ecstasy tablets

Tbh gue, i struggle to consider your points. They've tended to be buried in a lot of distraction recently imo...

On the point of a kind of hangover from religion though...i can see that some of the individual and collective programs do indeed come from the various churches. There's a whole myriad of these programs flying about the planet though from a myriad of sources.

andyh wrote:


andyh wrote:
I agree that this is their thinking.

The elite that are still kicking it are too sly, and have a lot of tech at their disposal now also.

However the next generation might fuck things up!

Dub i know you're a busy man and all, I spend a lot of time on educating myself so I always try and provide some links as to what I'm blabbering on about for you to read, all I ask before you dismiss me out of hand is maybe give some of them a look occasionally, I find them helpful and wouldn't share them otherwise.

I like Bertrand Russel's quote on page 1 "what we need is not dogma, but a method of scientific analysis"..

Religious thought re-invented itself in Hegel:
gyral.blackshell.com/hegel/heghist.htmlthen in Icke

Of course this is all right wing vs left wing stuff that doesn't exist

Guevarista wrote:
It abandons the entire economic paradigm so I fail to see how it can be called socialist. Nor is there anything about it that states it has to be international?

Again as I said before, kneejerk assumptions like the above along with the elites own preference for the status quo will prevail.
Yourself and many others are living proof of everything I've said above lol

Everyones existence on this planet is about preserving a paradigm. You're born, you work, you pay tax, you die.
Any life enriching experience in between is strictly verboten.

Gue, i'm not sure what you are suggesting by referring to me as a "busy man".....

My struggle to get your points doesnt stem from a lack of my own time to read stuff you post fella. Neither does it stem from being an unread prole.

It stems from what i will loosely call, your attitude of late to anyone who doesnt see things quite as you do.
I find all the patronising posts, wild speculations spoken as facts and closed mindedness distracting......thats all.

Socialist Utopias don't have to have money in them, or an economic system, I don't think Thomas More's utopia had money
Social is the operative word there, that is Fresco's ideal isn't it, people working together, sharing the wealth on earth, sharing the resources etc?
it's certainly the sort of thing spoken of in Websites under the name of the Venus Project:
futurewewant.org/2012/the-venus-project-2/

dubmeup wrote: That you are busy actually and work for a living unlike me
No it stems obviously from me and my long winded verbosity, I know I tried to apologize for that, the threads ok, there are some good points in it, I'm gonna go and smoke a reefer now ok?
I'd actually say people who completely disagree with the way I view things, i'd like you to explain where i've been making "wild speculations" or have been "closed minded" at all?

That would be nice, I try and remain balance, off i trot.

Guevarista wrote:
You have an obsession with the word for some reason

People co-operate right now...for profit, or what they THINK is profit lol...

Profit profit profit

There's a few billion people on this world who will be lucky to make it to 30. They don't profit.

Guevarista wrote:
Im not sure that those of us here would argue that it doesnt exist per se...

What some of us have wanted to get across is...the politicians presented to us to choose from in elections...well either 'side' is just a sell out to the status quo...the same power base...globalisation and the same agendas to reach the set goals ...it all rolls on.

And if someone attempts to do or think otherwise (see Mark Latham in Australia, who i think at one time was possibly the real deal) ...they are removed or demonised by the media. (most of which is murdoch in australia)

Example of passing the ball from 'right' to 'left' in regards to the political systems currently entrenched in most countries...Obama after Bush...




Yeah i know dees aint your favourite artist too But in his defence he does use swastikas also in some of his work. so its not all blue and white lapels.

I'm glad we're not falling out gue

IIRC the other day you tried to rebut a point with a statement like there are more yuppies than workers or summat. that'd be a good example of a wild speculation presented as a fact.....its not the only example though.

perhaps closed minded was a poor turn of phrase. i dont think your mind is closed, far from it. i guess i meant summat more along the lines of comitted to a train of thought i note you didnt ask for an example of patronizing

anyway, ignore me. i've been largely holed up in the van for a few days unable to do anything constructive cos of the weather. its entirely possible i'm being overly critical due to encroaching stir crazyness...

Guevarista wrote:
Thank you.

Believing in the existence of Love which can be personified as the emodiment of Love, is not a recipie for tyranny

I am disappointed that you see me as somehow deluded.

I have never been a materialist. Always fanciful, I guess.

Carry on.