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TOPIC: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother?

Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 14:00 #1

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www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/20/fis...f-plan-b-talks-cease

Republicans push 'plan B' as White House says fiscal cliff talks have ceased

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/20/fis...ase#comment-20180311
It's pie-in-the-sky. Obama could raise taxes to 80%, the US still can't meet its liabilities, or even begin to start to pay back any of its debts. They're just kicking the can down the road, treading water, or whatever metaphor you wish to use for delaying the inevitable. Look at the following:

www.usdebtclock.org/

Don't just look at the total debt. Look at the liabilities per taxpayer. $1,061,217 per taxpayer. The US will never recover from this without either being 'bailed out' (which is impossible), (b) defaulting on its debt, (c) inflating its currency, or (d) bringing the entire 'global economic system' that has been operating since Bretton Wood crashing down. That's simply a mathematical certainty. Whether or not people choose to accept that and pay some sort of credence to this pointless 'fiscal cliff' distraction is up to them.
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/20/fis...ase#comment-20181051
I see that extreme rightist nitwits are on the loose in this weblog, Mr. Keister, Smoker50 (?) and wakeupbomb (?). What is it with the monikers, latter two?

Egad, I had hoped that the Guardian would be free of such types. Did any ever consider using his (presumably) brain to make an informed comment?
I don't mind being called a 'nitwit', but I do rather object to being described as 'extreme right-wing'. Sorry, I don't support Obama, I must be extreme right-wing.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/20/fis...ase#comment-20189612
The Wake Up Bomb is the name of a song by REM.

I'm not extreme right-wing, if anything I'm extreme left-wing, as I'm a libertarian in favour of direct democracy. If you want to go around believing that this 'fiscal cliff' debate is meaningful, and that the US economy can somehow recover from the situation it has systematically been dragged into, that's up to you. If you don't want to look at the basic figures that will quite easily inform anyone that there is no conceivable way that the US can (a) meet its liabilities, or (b) even continue to meet the interest payments on its debt, let alone actually pay any back...that's also up to you. It won't change it from being the case.

Instead of this phony debate, politicians should be saying that they'll end all US military interventions overseas, close down all overseas US military bases, slash the defence budget to virtually nothing, just maintaining what is required for basic home defence (which is virtually nothing as no nation would ever be stupid enough to attack the American mainland considering they've got thousands of nuclear weapon and have used the atomic bomb previously), kick all the corporate lobbyists out of Washington, and explain to people that they have two basic choices. Either they default on their existing debt like Iceland, which will have massive consequences, or they slash spending, perhaps some worthwhile stuff will have to go, so that they can continue to fund social security. With 47 million, and rising, Americans on food stamps, this is quite important.

Of course, that won't happen because 98% of Americans turned up and voted for the two corporate candidates Romney and Obama, and that's why we're having this completely pointless debate about the 'fiscal cliff' in a surprisingly successful attempt to distract people away from the fact that the US economy cannot conceivably recover.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 14:16 #2

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do you hate obama because you is racist
:rofl:
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Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 14:26 #3

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batou wrote:
do you hate obama because you is racist
:rofl:

Obviously. The man and his policies are beyond criticism, it must be becoz he iz black.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 15:53 #4

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I think alot of people jump down Obama's throat for the American Foreign policy, financial situation he has in most part inherited, if he'd gone JFK on the War, gone after the CIA, military industrial complex and all that shit he'd have been shot, very simple.
Imo it would have been painted as a racist lone nut constitutionalist, the far right in the ruling classes will still have that as a potential power play imo I hope he has good people around him.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 15:57 #5

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I really hate the term "fiscal cliff". It sends my heart racing.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 16:07 #6

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Guevarista wrote:
I think alot of people jump down Obama's throat for the American Foreign policy, financial situation he has in most part inherited, if he'd gone JFK on the War, gone after the CIA, military industrial complex and all that shit he'd have been shot, very simple.
I wouldn't disagree with you at all there, but if you knew this, he must know it too. You don't end up in that position by accident, or without a hell of a lot of effort, so he must have made all this effort safe in the knowledge that he was going to continue all of Bush's policies. Which means he told a hell of a lot of lies during campaigning, and is, in my opinion, as culpable for US foreign policy as the Bush administration was.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 21 Dec 2012 16:07 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 16:22 #7

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Obama inherited a shitstorm dude, it's how you deal with the inevitable change, the fallout, there will always be people who say you've done the wrong thing, but there isn't a right way to address the drastic far reaching changes made by Reagan Bush and Cheney Bush etc.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 16:36 #8

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
I think alot of people jump down Obama's throat for the American Foreign policy, financial situation he has in most part inherited, if he'd gone JFK on the War, gone after the CIA, military industrial complex and all that shit he'd have been shot, very simple.
I wouldn't disagree with you at all there, but if you knew this, he must know it too. You don't end up in that position by accident, or without a hell of a lot of effort, so he must have made all this effort safe in the knowledge that he was going to continue all of Bush's policies. Which means he told a hell of a lot of lies during campaigning, and is, in my opinion, as culpable for US foreign policy as the Bush administration was.

wake up bomb in summary tell me what you wan't Obama to do...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 16:59 #9

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.......... wrote:
wake_up_bomb wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
I think alot of people jump down Obama's throat for the American Foreign policy, financial situation he has in most part inherited, if he'd gone JFK on the War, gone after the CIA, military industrial complex and all that shit he'd have been shot, very simple.
I wouldn't disagree with you at all there, but if you knew this, he must know it too. You don't end up in that position by accident, or without a hell of a lot of effort, so he must have made all this effort safe in the knowledge that he was going to continue all of Bush's policies. Which means he told a hell of a lot of lies during campaigning, and is, in my opinion, as culpable for US foreign policy as the Bush administration was.

wake up bomb in summary tell me what you wan't Obama to do...

it's in the op
"The Wake Up Bomb is the name of a song by REM.

I’m not extreme right-​wing, if anything I’m extreme left-​wing, as I’m a libertarian in favour of direct democracy. If you want to go around believing that this ‘fiscal cliff’ debate is meaningful, and that the US economy can somehow recover from the situation it has systematically been dragged into, that’s up to you. If you don’t want to look at the basic figures that will quite easily inform anyone that there is no conceivable way that the US can (a) meet its liabilities, or (b) even continue to meet the interest payments on its debt, let alone actually pay any back…that’s also up to you. It won’t change it from being the case.

Instead of this phony debate, politicians should be saying that they’ll end all US military interventions overseas, close down all overseas US military bases, slash the defence budget to virtually nothing, just maintaining what is required for basic home defence (which is virtually nothing as no nation would ever be stupid enough to attack the American mainland considering they’ve got thousands of nuclear weapon and have used the atomic bomb previously), kick all the corporate lobbyists out of Washington, and explain to people that they have two basic choices. Either they default on their existing debt like Iceland, which will have massive consequences, or they slash spending, perhaps some worthwhile stuff will have to go, so that they can continue to fund social security. With 47 million, and rising, Americans on food stamps, this is quite important.

Of course, that won’t happen because 98% of Americans turned up and voted for the two corporate candidates Romney and Obama, and that’s why we’re having this completely pointless debate about the ‘fiscal cliff’ in a surprisingly successful attempt to distract people away from the fact that the US economy cannot conceivably recover."
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 21 Dec 2012 17:01 by Guevarista.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 17:00 #10

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Inheriting a shitstorm is one thing and no-one should be blamed for what others did before them.
Saying you'll do one set of things to get elected and then doing a completely different set of things which rather resemble your predecessor's actions, is another thing.

If RA didn't read Wub's post Gue, what makes you think he'll read your quote of it? ;)
Last Edit: 21 Dec 2012 17:01 by dubs.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 17:33 #11

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noseymutegirl wrote:
I really hate the term "fiscal cliff". It sends my heart racing.

:winning: hi my name's Cliff
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 17:50 #12

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.......... wrote:
wake up bomb in summary tell me what you wan't Obama to do...
(1) Withdraw all US troops immediately from all overseas conflicts.

(2) Stop funding Islamic militants in Syria as a pretext to invade the country.

(3) Guarantee that Iran will not be subject to military action.

(4) Concede that it's totally hypocritical for the US to be dictating to Iran regarding nuclear weapons when they possess thousands, and are the only country in history to have utilised atomic weaponry.

(5) Acknowledge the US role in creating the conditions that exist in Iran by their meddling foreign policy towards the country, beginning with Operation Ajax in 1953 (this was mentioned by Ron Paul during his election campaign).

(6) Close down all overseas US military bases. If this costs jobs then there are many ways to reorganise the economy, including, for example, paying people to retrain.

(7) Slash the US defence budget to almost zero, simply retaining enough expenditure to maintain a modicum of home defence (which will never be needed as no country will ever attack the US mainland) thereby almost eradicating the budget deficit overnight.

(8) Divert some of the trillions of dollars of black budgets that are currently poured into clandestine Pentagon programmes into, firstly, eliminating the budget deficit, secondly, reducing some of the US' external and government debt, and thirdly, to fund existing and new social programmes.

(9) Close down Guantanomo Bay as he promised to do during the election campaign.

(10) Close down other less high profile prison camps that resemble Guantanomo Bay as well.

(11) End the policy of 'extraordinary rendition' as he promised during the election campaign.

(12) Apologise explicitly and publicly for the US policy of bombing Vietnam with Agent Orange, and make immediate plans to pay the Vietnamese the compensation that they have never received.

(13) Renegotiate - or better still end - the North American Free Trade Agreement as he promised to do so during the election campaign.

(14) Properly audit the Federal Reserve and hold it accountable for its actions.

(15) Begin a huge independent inquiry into precisely where the TARP bailout money went (which Bernanake was unable to account for) and what is was used for, and explicitly ensure that public money isn't used to bail out huge investment banks again.

(16) End all high frequency trading within the United States.

(17) Ban all corporate lobbyists from Washington. In fact, I wouldn't have any objection to charitable lobbyists being banned as well.

(18) Uphold the US constitution as he proclaimed he would do as he studied constitutional law in Chicago, instead of trampling all over it as he has.

(19) End the Security and Prosperity Partnership, and guarantee that there will be no further agreements of this nature.

(20) End the push for Cap and Trade and guarantee that no similar legislation will be put before Congress again.

(21) Once the US budget deficit has been eliminated - which would be the case if points (i) - (viii) were implemented - end the policy of quantitative easing immediately.

(22) Any surplus budget, which would easily be created by ending the Pentgaon black budgets should be diverted into (a) paying off some of the existing debt, (b) boosting America's gold reserves, (c) subsidising local, small-scale farmers, (d) funding social, educational and training programme for the poorest people in society. I would start with the 47 million people on food stamps. I would be looking to end the food stamp programme and have people do something productive for which they would receive a government paycheck. This is perfectly achievable.

(23) End US military aid to Israel, publicly acknowledge that Israel is occupying Palestine, state that a peaceful, two-state resolution would be the best outcome, but that the United States will no longer intervene directly.

(24) End US arms sales all over the world, particularly focusing on not selling arms and having favourable trading relationships with countries with abysmal human rights records, such as Saudi Arabia.

(25) Order a huge independent investigation into 9/11, and fund it properly, while ensuring that the people who sit on the commission can't be accused of massive vested interest, and that no hypothesis is automatically ruled out before the commission begins looking at the evidence.

(26) End all drone bombing. Explicitly state that no further drone bombing will take place ever again. Publicly acknowledge the authoritative studies that have taken place which indicate that the policy kills ten civilians per militant that it targets. Apologise publicly for all the civilians that have been slaughtered by US drone bombing in Pakistan, Somalia, Libya, Yemen, etc.

(27) End all forms of corporate welfare immediately.

(28) Stop using signing statements to by-pass Congress, as you promised you'd do during the election campaign.

(29) Publish bills online before they are passed into law, as you promised you'd do during the election campaign.

(30) End the illegal wiretapping of American citizens, as you promised you'd do during the election campaign.

(31) Shelve the plans for a National Strategy for Trusted Identities in Cyberspace, which amounts to spying on, not only the American people, but people all over the world.

(32) Don't allow such appalling and compromised people to fill key positions such as Lawrence Summers, Robert Gates, William Lynn, David Axelrod and Hillary Clinton.

(33) Attempt to limit the influence of groups such as the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations and Bilderberg, by not appointing dozens of their members to key positions as Obama did during his first term.

(34) Attempt to limit the influence of huge financial institutions on the political process by not appointing dozens of people with clear links to Goldman Sachs to key position as Obama did during his first term.

(35) Don't appoint people like Zbigniew Brzezinski to key advisory positions.

(36) Seeing as you supposedly represent black people and their interests, perhaps actually appoint some non-white people to serve in your government, thus at least giving some vague indication that it represents something approaching the full spectrum of people in the United States, and not just the fat, white, rich status quo.

(37) Investigate the huge manipulation of markets in the United States, particularly derivatives and precious metals.

(38) Actually ensure that some of the banksters who commit massive fraud are tried in courts of law as criminals, not made to pay a piss in pot fine, without any other recriminations whatsover. This would be nothing new, as thousands of bankers were jailed during the Saving & Loan crisis during the 1980s and 1990s.

(39) Repeal the deeply unconstitutional PATRIOT Act that was passed in the aftermath of 9/11.

(40) End the increasing, and completely unnecessary, militarisation of the police.

(41) State explicitly that you will uphold states' rights in the future, and ensure that federal law will not be imposed on individual states against their will.

(42) Completely reassess the nation's energy and food policies with regards to biotech, GM food, biofuels, etc.

(43) State explicitly that you will uphold the Bill of Rights and Constitution, but that moves will be made to instigate direct democracy in the United States, whereby the government, and federal laws / bills made by the government, can be held directly accountable by the people in regular referenda, and that people can raise their own issues and bills for vote if they can get enough people to sponsor / sign up for them. Essentially, the Swiss system of cantonal-based direct democracy could easily be copied in the United States as they already have the perfect separation of the country into fifty states.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 21 Dec 2012 17:55 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 18:00 #13

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I'm so glad I pretty much agree with you on most things WUB, you're formidable!
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 18:13 #14

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You wrote that off the top of your head and didn't copy it from somewhere?

Fuckin A

:approved:
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 18:24 #15

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
I don't mind being called a 'nitwit', but I do rather object to being described as 'extreme right-wing'.

Its The Guardian wub....what do you expect?

:hahano:
truth-zone.co.uk/ - the other place...

The pen is mightier than the sword
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 18:24 #16

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oioioi wrote:
I'm so glad I pretty much agree with you on most things WUB, you're formidable!
Thanks, I'm happy to be somewhere that people agree with me instead of getting hostile when I express my opinions. You know, like everywhere else in the world apart from here...noseymutegirl wrote:
You wrote that off the top of your head and didn't copy it from somewhere?

Fuckin A

:approved:
Google it and see if you can find it! It was all my own work, m'Lady. Hand on heart, I swear on this Bible.

I just don't want to be one of those people who whinge about everything and then don't have any answers. I certainly don't have all the answers, I wish I did, but we can change things if people can be bothered. I guess the jury is still out on that one.diamondgeezer wrote:
Its The Guardian wub....what do you expect?

:hahano:
I suppose I shouldn't expect anything else. As I was saying in another thread, I forget what a chasm there is between our views and the general public.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 18:53 #17

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wub i think he is working on some of your top 43 problems...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 19:09 #18

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Which ones do you think he is giving his most attention to now, RA? I think I know what the news is focusing on but I really don't know what he is determined to do,
15841098 Christmas Character Snowman
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 19:25 #19

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noseymutegirl wrote:
Which ones do you think he is giving his most attention to now, RA? I think I know what the news is focusing on but I really don't know what he is determined to do,

All Obama ever talks about is trying to cut Military Spending and use the money on education...

And of course tax the wealthy to pay down the debt...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 19:33 #20

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.......... wrote:
All Obama ever talks about is trying to cut Military Spending and use the money on education...

And of course tax the wealthy to pay down the debt...
I could end military spending virtually completely tomorrow in the ways suggested. He won't do any of those things, he will continue drone bombing, and indeed will extend this policy. He'll lead NATO action in Syria. He will go into Iran when the time comes. He will never withdraw troops from Afghanistan until the pipeline is complete. And so on.

I'm not too bothered about taxing the upper middle-classes / wealthy. I don't even mind corporations avoiding tax, as long as the tax burden is cut on poor people. I think this could be easily achieved by purely the methods suggested, but if you reached the point where there was a budget deficit then I would be looking for corporations that make billions to make more of a contribution.

Another way of raising revenue would be to legalise cannabis, make it widely available, and place some mild taxation on it. I would have included some ideas related to private prisons, decriminalisation of drugs, intelligence agency operations and drug trafficking had I given it more thought.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 21 Dec 2012 19:34 by wake_up_bomb.
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( £ 140 GBP )
donation thermometer
56%
Most Recent Donation:
$122 USD on 4th Jan 2021
Bitcoin Address: bc1q0kazqya0nurfxtunxv807vm0m8852nnrrk8mj8
 
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More Info: Donation options for TZ

No one is obliged to donate, please only donate what you can afford. Even the smallest amount helps. Being an active member is a positive contribution. Thank You.

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