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TOPIC: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother?

Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 19:59 #21

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
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All Obama ever talks about is trying to cut Military Spending and use the money on education...

And of course tax the wealthy to pay down the debt...
I could end military spending virtually completely tomorrow in the ways suggested. He won't do any of those things, he will continue drone bombing, and indeed will extend this policy. He'll lead NATO action in Syria. He will go into Iran when the time comes. He will never withdraw troops from Afghanistan until the pipeline is complete. And so on.

I'm not too bothered about taxing the upper middle-classes / wealthy. I don't even mind corporations avoiding tax, as long as the tax burden is cut on poor people. I think this could be easily achieved by purely the methods suggested, but if you reached the point where there was a budget deficit then I would be looking for corporations that make billions to make more of a contribution.

Another way of raising revenue would be to legalise cannabis, make it widely available, and place some mild taxation on it. I would have included some ideas related to private prisons, decriminalisation of drugs, intelligence agency operations and drug trafficking had I given it more thought.

Have to wait and see how things play out in the next few years...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 20:07 #22

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I’m not too bothered about taxing the upper middle-​classes /​wealthy. I don’t even mind corporations avoiding tax, as long as the tax burden is cut on poor people.

Agreed....but unfortunately they won't be cutting the tax burden on poor people any time soon, its so profitable. Plenty of them you see...
Another way of raising revenue would be to legalise cannabis, make it widely available, and place some mild taxation on it.

Also agreed, 100%. But they won't be doing that any time soon either.
truth-zone.co.uk/ - the other place...

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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 20:13 #23

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diamondgeezer wrote:
Another way of raising revenue would be to legalise cannabis, make it widely available, and place some mild taxation on it.

Also agreed, 100%. But they won't be doing that any time soon either.

It is in Colorado...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 20:17 #24

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.......... wrote:
diamondgeezer wrote:
Another way of raising revenue would be to legalise cannabis, make it widely available, and place some mild taxation on it.

Also agreed, 100%. But they won't be doing that any time soon either.

It is in Colorado...

Yep and good.

But in the UK it won't be happening..
truth-zone.co.uk/ - the other place...

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Last Edit: 21 Dec 2012 20:18 by diamondgeezer.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 20:44 #25

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diamondgeezer wrote:
.......... wrote:
diamondgeezer wrote:
Another way of raising revenue would be to legalise cannabis, make it widely available, and place some mild taxation on it.

Also agreed, 100%. But they won't be doing that any time soon either.

It is in Colorado...

Yep and good.

But in the UK it won't be happening..

Why not in the UK?
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 21 Dec 2012 21:30 #26

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Cos so many of us grow it we don't want it to be legalised and taxed RA :killinme:
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 15:38 #27

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.......... wrote:
wub i think he is working on some of your top 43 problems...
I'm now going to underline which of the 43 issues could be resolved immediately, or else for which Obama is directly culpable, thus rendering the idea that he's somehow trying to resolve the issue obsolete:

(1) Withdraw all US troops immediately from all overseas conflicts - this could arguably take some time, but Obama could certainly signal this intention immediately.

(2) Stop funding Islamic militants in Syria as a pretext to invade the country.

(3) Guarantee that Iran will not be subject to military action.

(4) Concede that it's totally hypocritical for the US to be dictating to Iran regarding nuclear weapons when they possess thousands, and are the only country in history to have utilised atomic weaponry.

(5) Acknowledge the US role in creating the conditions that exist in Iran by their meddling foreign policy towards the country, beginning with Operation Ajax in 1953 (this was mentioned by Ron Paul during his election campaign).

(6) Close down all overseas US military bases. If this costs jobs then there are many ways to reorganise the economy, including, for example, paying people to retrain. - this would also take some time, but the intention could be announced immediately.

(7) Slash the US defence budget to almost zero, simply retaining enough expenditure to maintain a modicum of home defence (which will never be needed as no country will ever attack the US mainland) thereby almost eradicating the budget deficit overnight. - this would also take some time, but the intention could be announced immediately.

(8) Divert some of the trillions of dollars of black budgets that are currently poured into clandestine Pentagon programmes into, firstly, eliminating the budget deficit, secondly, reducing some of the US' external and government debt, and thirdly, to fund existing and new social programmes.

(9) Close down Guantanomo Bay as he promised to do during the election campaign.

(10) Close down other less high profile prison camps that resemble Guantanomo Bay as well.

(11) End the policy of 'extraordinary rendition' as he promised during the election campaign.
- note that Obama has claimed to have ended the policy of 'extraordinary rendition', but still reserves the right to engage in rendition. Surprisingly, it wasn't the word 'extraordinary' that was important, it was the word 'rendition'.

(12) Apologise explicitly and publicly for the US policy of bombing Vietnam with Agent Orange, and make immediate plans to pay the Vietnamese the compensation that they have never received.

(13) Renegotiate - or better still end - the North American Free Trade Agreement as he promised to do so during the election campaign. - possibly can't be achieved immediately, but Obama could signal his intention to do so immediately.

(14) Properly audit the Federal Reserve and hold it accountable for its actions. - would take some time to carry out, but intention to do so could be signalled immediately.

(15) Begin a huge independent inquiry into precisely where the TARP bailout money went (which Bernanake was unable to account for) and what is was used for, and explicitly ensure that public money isn't used to bail out huge investment banks again. - would take some time to carry out, but intention to do so could be signalled immediately.

(16) End all high frequency trading within the United States.

(17) Ban all corporate lobbyists from Washington. In fact, I wouldn't have any objection to charitable lobbyists being banned as well.

(18) Uphold the US constitution as he proclaimed he would do as he studied constitutional law in Chicago, instead of trampling all over it as he has.

(19) End the Security and Prosperity Partnership, and guarantee that there will be no further agreements of this nature.

(20) End the push for Cap and Trade and guarantee that no similar legislation will be put before Congress again.

(21) Once the US budget deficit has been eliminated - which would be the case if points (i) - (viii) were implemented - end the policy of quantitative easing immediately.

(22) Any surplus budget, which would easily be created by ending the Pentgaon black budgets should be diverted into (a) paying off some of the existing debt, (b) boosting America's gold reserves, (c) subsidising local, small-scale farmers, (d) funding social, educational and training programme for the poorest people in society. I would start with the 47 million people on food stamps. I would be looking to end the food stamp programme and have people do something productive for which they would receive a government paycheck. This is perfectly achievable.

(23) End US military aid to Israel, publicly acknowledge that Israel is occupying Palestine, state that a peaceful, two-state resolution would be the best outcome, but that the United States will no longer intervene directly.

(24) End US arms sales all over the world, particularly focusing on not selling arms and having favourable trading relationships with countries with abysmal human rights records, such as Saudi Arabia.

(25) Order a huge independent investigation into 9/11, and fund it properly, while ensuring that the people who sit on the commission can't be accused of massive vested interest, and that no hypothesis is automatically ruled out before the commission begins looking at the evidence. - this would take some time, but the intention to do so could be signalled immediately.

(26) End all drone bombing. Explicitly state that no further drone bombing will take place ever again. Publicly acknowledge the authoritative studies that have taken place which indicate that the policy kills ten civilians per militant that it targets. Apologise publicly for all the civilians that have been slaughtered by US drone bombing in Pakistan, Somalia, Libya, Yemen, etc.

(27) End all forms of corporate welfare immediately.

(28) Stop using signing statements to by-pass Congress, as you promised you'd do during the election campaign.

(29) Publish bills online before they are passed into law, as you promised you'd do during the election campaign.

(30) End the illegal wiretapping of American citizens, as you promised you'd do during the election campaign.

(31) Shelve the plans for a National Strategy for Trusted Identities in Cyberspace, which amounts to spying on, not only the American people, but people all over the world.

(32) Don't allow such appalling and compromised people to fill key positions such as Lawrence Summers, Robert Gates, William Lynn, David Axelrod and Hillary Clinton.

(33) Attempt to limit the influence of groups such as the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations and Bilderberg, by not appointing dozens of their members to key positions as Obama did during his first term.

(34) Attempt to limit the influence of huge financial institutions on the political process by not appointing dozens of people with clear links to Goldman Sachs to key position as Obama did during his first term.

(35) Don't appoint people like Zbigniew Brzezinski to key advisory positions.

(36) Seeing as you supposedly represent black people and their interests, perhaps actually appoint some non-white people to serve in your government, thus at least giving some vague indication that it represents something approaching the full spectrum of people in the United States, and not just the fat, white, rich status quo.

(37) Investigate the huge manipulation of markets in the United States, particularly derivatives and precious metals. - this would take some time to carry out, but he could signal the intention to do so immediately.

(38) Actually ensure that some of the banksters who commit massive fraud are tried in courts of law as criminals, not made to pay a piss in pot fine, without any other recriminations whatsover. This would be nothing new, as thousands of bankers were jailed during the Saving & Loan crisis during the 1980s and 1990s. - this would take some time to carry out, but he could signal the intention to do so immediately.

(39) Repeal the deeply unconstitutional PATRIOT Act that was passed in the aftermath of 9/11.

(40) End the increasing, and completely unnecessary, militarisation of the police.

(41) State explicitly that you will uphold states' rights in the future, and ensure that federal law will not be imposed on individual states against their will.

(42) Completely reassess the nation's energy and food policies with regards to biotech, GM food, biofuels, etc. - this would take some time to carry out, but he could signal the intention to do so immediately.

(43) State explicitly that you will uphold the Bill of Rights and Constitution, but that moves will be made to instigate direct democracy in the United States, whereby the government, and federal laws / bills made by the government, can be held directly accountable by the people in regular referenda, and that people can raise their own issues and bills for vote if they can get enough people to sponsor / sign up for them. Essentially, the Swiss system of cantonal-based direct democracy could easily be copied in the United States as they already have the perfect separation of the country into fifty states. - this would take some time to carry out, but he could signal the intention to do so immediately.

So that would be 41 out of 43.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2012 15:39 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 16:16 #28

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
.......... wrote:
All Obama ever talks about is trying to cut Military Spending and use the money on education...

And of course tax the wealthy to pay down the debt...
I could end military spending virtually completely tomorrow in the ways suggested. He won't do any of those things, he will continue drone bombing, and indeed will extend this policy. He'll lead NATO action in Syria. He will go into Iran when the time comes. He will never withdraw troops from Afghanistan until the pipeline is complete. And so on.

I'm not too bothered about taxing the upper middle-classes / wealthy. I don't even mind corporations avoiding tax, as long as the tax burden is cut on poor people. I think this could be easily achieved by purely the methods suggested, but if you reached the point where there was a budget deficit then I would be looking for corporations that make billions to make more of a contribution.

Another way of raising revenue would be to legalise cannabis, make it widely available, and place some mild taxation on it. I would have included some ideas related to private prisons, decriminalisation of drugs, intelligence agency operations and drug trafficking had I given it more thought.

You say you could end military spending virtually completely tomorrow in the ways you suggested.

But you don't have a job in the house or senate so how do you plan to do that?
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 16:31 #29

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Wanting to do something politically speaking and being able to do it are two different things. Sadly president of the united states is not a job that gives you power to just snap your fingers. As long as there is money on politics it is tough to do things. Those tax dodging corporations have vested interests and money/power to make sure their desires come first.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 16:43 #30

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i-baster wrote:
Wanting to do something politically speaking and being able to do it are two different things. Sadly president of the united states is not a job that gives you power to just snap your fingers. As long as there is money on politics it is tough to do things. Those tax dodging corporations have vested interests and money/power to make sure their desires come first.
(i) Can you give me any indication that Obama has tried to reduce the influence of lobbying?
(ii) Can you give me any indication that Obama has attempted to put any of the 41 issues that he could address immediately before the Senate or Congress?
(iii) Can you explain why this would prevent him making the sort of appointments mentioned in points 32 - 36?
(iv) Can you explain why this would stop Obama from, for example, apologising regarding the Agent Orange policy?
(v) Can you explain why this would stop him from repealing the PATRIOT Act?
(vi) Can you explain why this would stop him from funding Islamic militants in Syria?
(vii) Can you explain why this would prevent him from ruling out military action in Iran?
(viii) Can you explain why this would prevent him from closing down Guantanomo Bay?
(ix) Can you explain why this would prevent him from ending the policy of 'rendition'?
(x) Can you explain why this would prevent him from auditing the Federal Reserve, particularly as a Bill was raised on this matter, which he refused to support?
(xi) Can you explain why this would prevent him from at least investigating where the TARP bailout money went? Do you not care about this considering (I assume) you're an American taxpayer?

I could go on, but this really doesn't answer any of the points at all. "As long as there is money on politics it is tough to do things". Well, for starters, you could not appoint a huge raft of compromised people to key positions and then allow the financial sector to engage in huge fraud, while telling the taxpayer that they have to bail them out, without even bothering to hold them to account regarding where the money had gone! You don't seem bothered about this, though!
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2012 16:43 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 16:58 #31

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I don't think you understand the political system in the states. Maybe I don't get it entirely myself either but Obama has to have financial backing. You don't get something for nothing in politics.

Please also remember that you can't assume that you know me based on a few posts. I don't support Obama on all things but as a person living in America I look at domestic and foreign policy but most of all I look at the system and the other horse in the race.

I really don't have time or the inclination to go through all your points but Obama is better than Bush and better than Romney IMHO. I wear a few hats and my main concern is my family and therefore my job. My union helps me feed my family and democrats are usually much more supportive of project labor agreements while republicans try to outlaw them and turn states into right to work states.

Like I said it is far from simple but unless the system changes or you can live outside the system then you make do.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:00 #32

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
(iv) Can you explain why this would stop Obama from, for example, apologising regarding the Agent Orange policy?

The Vietnam war started before Obama was born so what's the point in him apologising for the Agent Orange ...

WUB if that's the case he also needs to apologize Hiroshima and Nagasaki also...:facepalm:
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2012 17:02 by ...........
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:03 #33

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i-baster wrote:
I don't think you understand the political system in the states. Maybe I don't get it entirely myself either but Obama has to have financial backing. You don't get something for nothing in politics.

Please also remember that you can't assume that you know me based on a few posts. I don't support Obama on all things but as a person living in America I look at domestic and foreign policy but most of all I look at the system and the other horse in the race.

I really don't have time or the inclination to go through all your points but Obama is better than Bush and better than Romney IMHO. I wear a few hats and my main concern is my family and therefore my job. My union helps me feed my family and democrats are usually much more supportive of project labor agreements while republicans try to outlaw them and turn states into right to work states.

Like I said it is far from simple but unless the system changes or you can live outside the system then you make do.
You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. But I would also ask that you don't "assume you know me based on a few posts". I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I know a fair bit about American politics and have written about it at great length.

With regards to living "outside of the system", 98% of Americans turned up and voted for Obama and Romney! And you are defending Obama, so you absolutely deserve what you get. As do all of the 98% of people that turned up and voted for them. The 2% that didn't, and those that didn't vote at all, I do have sympathy with. And I also sympathise for those who voted for Obama but realise that they've been had. I just find it bizarre that you're getting robbed blind every day of your life, and the US is culpable for slaughtering innocent people all over the world with your tax money, yet you're happy to defend the figurehead of the US government. I find it utterly bizarre.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2012 17:08 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:05 #34

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i-baster wrote:
I don't think you understand the political system in the states.

It kind of looks like he understands it better than most Americans, including myself.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:07 #35

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.......... wrote:
The Vietnam war started before Obama was born so what's the point in him apologising for the Agent Orange ...

WUB if that's the case he also needs to apologize Hiroshima and Nagasaki also...:facepalm:
Correct. There is no end of other completely needless and indefensible slaughter that the US has also engaged in that he should also apologise for, some of which is taking place today.

There are particular reasons why he should explicitly apologise for Agent Orange, I wouldn't expect you to know these.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2012 17:08 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:12 #36

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
.......... wrote:
The Vietnam war started before Obama was born so what's the point in him apologising for the Agent Orange ...

WUB if that's the case he also needs to apologize Hiroshima and Nagasaki also...:facepalm:
Correct. There is no end of other completely needless and indefensible slaughter that the US has also engaged in that he should also apologise for, some of which are taking place today.

There are particular reasons why he should explicitly apologise for Agent Orange, I wouldn't expect you to know these.

It's funny you say that because he needs to apologize to Americans who got drafted to go to Vietnam also.

I was talking to a lady in the sauna this week who lost a husband to cancer from Agent Orange.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:17 #37

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
i-baster wrote:
I don't think you understand the political system in the states. Maybe I don't get it entirely myself either but Obama has to have financial backing. You don't get something for nothing in politics.

Please also remember that you can't assume that you know me based on a few posts. I don't support Obama on all things but as a person living in America I look at domestic and foreign policy but most of all I look at the system and the other horse in the race.

I really don't have time or the inclination to go through all your points but Obama is better than Bush and better than Romney IMHO. I wear a few hats and my main concern is my family and therefore my job. My union helps me feed my family and democrats are usually much more supportive of project labor agreements while republicans try to outlaw them and turn states into right to work states.

Like I said it is far from simple but unless the system changes or you can live outside the system then you make do.
You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. But I would also ask that you don't "assume you know me based on a few posts". I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I know a fair bit about American politics and have written about it at great length.

With regards to living "outside of the system", 98% of Americans turned up and voted for Obama and Romney! And you are defending Obama, so you absolutely deserve what you get. As do all of the 98% of people that turned up and voted for them. The 2% that didn't, and those that didn't vote at all, I do have sympathy with. And I also sympathise for those who voted for Obama but realise that they've been had. I just find it bizarre that you're getting robbed blind every day of your life, and the US is culpable for slaughtering innocent people all over the world with your tax money, yet you're happy to defend the figurehead of the US government. I find it utterly bizarre.

If those 2% would have voted for Al Gore the Iraq war would have never happened...
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:17 #38

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If you live in the real world like I do then you know that government impacts your life regardless of whether you vote or not.

I don't presume to know you but you talk about Obama as if he can just do things. He signed an executive order to close Guantanamo bay way back in 2009. So why is it still open? American politics is the answer. GOP is the other.

I also think writing off all those who voted is ignorant. I used to vow to myself that I would never vote. However as I have said in the real world you see that it does matter. Maybe voting will not give you the best but it might avoid you getting the worst.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:21 #39

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.......... wrote:
It's funny you say that because he needs to apologize to Americans who got drafted to go to Vietnam also.

I was talking to a lady in the sauna this week who lost a husband to cancer from Agent Orange.
I'm sorry for those Americans who suffered needlessly, however, this has been a very heavily highlighted issue in the United States, and the suffering wasn't even close to that which was completely needlessly imposed on the Vietnamese. As I said, there are specific reasons why the US president should apologise for this and guarantee compensation to the Vietnamese.

However, in addition to this, Vietnam is merely the most high profile gratuitous slaughter of innocent civilians by the United States, there are many others as well.
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Re: Do you Ever Wonder Why you Bother? 23 Dec 2012 17:24 #40

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i-baster wrote:
I don't presume to know you but you talk about Obama as if he can just do things. He signed an executive order to close Guantanamo bay way back in 2009. So why is it still open? American politics is the answer. GOP is the other.
The authoritative Pulitzer Prize winning website, Politifact, considers this pledge to have been broken:

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promise...ay-detention-center/
I also think writing off all those who voted is ignorant. I used to vow to myself that I would never vote. However as I have said in the real world you see that it does matter. Maybe voting will not give you the best but it might avoid you getting the worst.
I didn't write of all those who voted, only the 98% who turned up to vote for the same people that have been screwing them for decades expecting different results. You can call that arrogant if you want, I don't care. I consider repeating the same behaviour over and over again and expecting the outcome to change to be stupid.

Furthermore, I was specifically asked what I would like to see Obama do. So I listed 43 things that he has either done which he should reverse, or that he hasn't even attempted to do. I'm then told that Obama can't do anything. I'm then told that Obama has done a good job. I'm then told that I don't understand the US political system. I'm then told that I shouldn't criticise people for voting for Obama. Why don't you just bend over backwards and be done with it?!

Do you care that you're being robbed blind every day of your life, while the US federal government has aided trillionaires to steal billions of dollars (conservatively) from people of modest means? Does is not bother you that your tax money has gone towards slaughtering tens of millions of innocent people all over the world, and that the US defense budget is more than the budget deficit? You should care.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2012 17:30 by wake_up_bomb.
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