Of course we are far more likely to make radical change in our current lifestyle, if so motivate to do so, by external factors in our lives. For instance sudden unemployment, redundancies, changing housing circumstances ect are probably the main events that force us into a situation assessment mode, and prod us in a certain direction. If for the whole, things remain unchanged then we will be reluctant to change, as we can see no major improvement if we do.

Where as for a person who is currently struggling in the current climate, certain changes may have a dramatic improvement in their lives. And whether we agree or not , additional skills will probably be a major factor at this level.

If we are currently in a comfortable place, then its doubtful we will seek a need to change anything, regardless of whether our lifestyle is at the expense of others...................after all we are humans, and human nature has gifted us with a selfish trait where generally , we worry about ourselves first, and every one else last.

We are currently waving goodbye to the manufacturing services, as they are chinabound, in pursuit of ever cheaper products for us at home, who seek the continual flow of cheap tat from the large multinationals who exploit the life energy of our human brotherhood for larger profits. So no, at the moment, no, we wont be changing anything, learning anything, or doing anything different, as the current paradigm has convinced us we dont have to, as we are in a happy place.

Regardless of the fact that we are still in a state of economic contraction, both manufacturing and the digital downturn. Here in Ireland thousands of IT staff are in limbo at the moment as the course training is being radically reshuffled and budgets cut. Welfare recipients will no longer get the opportunity of learning new skills or courses, as their subsidised positions on courses, are being passed towards those that can pay first, if any places are left then they may get an opportunity to participate.Sections of the welfare offices work is also being outsourced to private companies that are more associated with financial services, than social services. Its already in process at the moment. So if you think I,m alright, I dont need to take steps to allow myself to exist in tougher times, where I have no job or security, then I think you may be mistaken.

The only way you could offset additional burdens placed on you in that position, would be the ability to have a skill that would save you some money, in performing a task for yourself rather than paying some one else to do it for you. And if Ireland is anything to go by, then the avenues to learn these things is slowly being withdrawn.
So if I had to have a neighbour during the hard times, I think an out of work IT pro would be as much use to me as a chocolate fireguard, or wipers on a motorbike, but someone with skills to supplement my own..................that,ll do nicely

I live in an old, fairly rural mining area. As you can imagine, the local economy is really shit. Entrangermercenary lives round here, so he knows what I'm talking about.

People round here have to work their arses off and lots of people seem to own small businesses and have been pretty inventive. Economic decline hit the forest years ago.

I'm an IT pro and I'm not out of work
If anything the job offers are pouring in even faster....

There's too many people who call themselves 'it pro's' who basically do nothing more than update excel sheets and answer phones.
Those are the ones going out of work because they actually don't have proper IT skills.

So the skill thing is something I agree with, it's just that I don't call some people 'engineers' because they're quite simply not

Some skills are valued and will remain so but you have to keep on top of the game and its hard work- again that aligns with the laziness mentioned. In the past perfecting a skill was more about practice and dexterity, it was not about learning from scratch everything you know every few months to keep pace with new software and requirements etc.

Theres only so much people can absorb at such a pace, even if they are intelligent.

For example, I have a book called 'RMAN recipes' for oracle 11g.
Its just about how to backup a single version of 1 database using 'RMAN' (a part of oracle which you use to back it up)
Its 650 pages long....
Then theres a book to install oracle and another book to tweak it, another book to add and remove tables, another book for how programmers can use it for connections and another book about structure etc etc etc.

And thats just oracle!!!

Then you have mysql, postgresql and microsoft sql.

Thats just databases and you're just beginning to scratch the surface.

Nice to here you are so busy andyh, keep it up .
The IT pros I am talking about, and who are close personal friends, are high up the IT foodchain, and are teaching . And they would be at the frontline of the current industry demand for trained professionals, and that demand is now falling so fast, that their own positions, and fellow tutors are now in jeopardy. they are at the coal face, so I reckon they know what they are talking about.
You might elaborate on your " engineer" quip.
If you mean the engineer tag, as recognised by professional bodies and such, their standards are set too low in my opinion, and in my experience in my field. I,ve spent 30 odd years training advanced carpentry and joinery techniques to craft apprentices, and their pass requirement was a mere 40% needed by the training establishments of the day.
I have met and worked with true masters of different disciplines that never spent a day in college. You dont need it, you only want to train under an experienced tutor. But thats my personal thought, born out by experience as well.

If you find yourself out of work, without the prospect of a job, then the only fallback will be what you can do for yourself, and in my opinion you need some skills if you dont already have them, to feed and water yourself, initially..............................and then the list goes on.

Incidentally an engineer is,
An engineer is a professional practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical problems. Engineers design materials, structures and systems while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, safety and cost.[1][2] The word engineer is derived from the Latin roots ingeniare ("to contrive, devise") and ingenium ("cleverness").
And I reckon app's pictures would happily earn him that title, wouldn,t you...............................
Sure I might even put up me own pics and get some letters after my name

Griswald wrote:
An IT engineer is someone who has in depth knowledge of ALL (or almost all) aspects of IT management, not just a specialist in 1 area.
Too many people specialise. I don't, I'm qualified in Linux, Windows, VMware, EMC kit, Cisco, all databases, loads of imaging software, loads of firewalls, loads of security setups etc etc. Thats why I'm not having any problems.

Good answer btw. Engineers design stuctures and also 'systems'
I'm a systems engineer. The trouble is its abused with various job titles meaning anything from someone who gives telephone support to muppets to someone who designs and implements a global network for large corporates.

Its no doubt deliberate ofc, to try and bring down salaries and try to split things up into units so that they can outsource each piece

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
Cycles are expected in the modern era and people do have an ability to adapt, as each cycle quickens the ability to adapt get more difficult, our next day delivery and reality has steadily removed our stock up mentality and we now shop for tomorrow mostly, this is an achilles heel and leaves the majority very vunerable indeed.

This is why I constantly promote preperation, reciprocation, skills, helping the whole wherever possible to help themselves, if we slumber on forever we will die to the rythum that is purpously being created.

The Apprentice wrote:
Transition and LETS isn't really my cup of tea. Transition tends to focus on very expensive technologies for the home that are out ofo my price range, and most other people's. I wanted to do something proactive and positive and I found out about Transition and thought I would see what it's all about, but it's too posh for the likes of me. A lot of them are very into Steiner which is all abit wierdy woo.

Also, yes, they will fuck you off straight away if you are a 'denier'. You must tow the official line! I would like to see a more working class version, where you can talk about sustainability, but in plain English? I think things should be sustainable, but why do they have to make everything so poncy?

I have dreams of being a class warrior and running a community project doing self sufficency stuff with people in a deprived area. Something that will empower them and save them money and make them less dependent on the grid. I haven't a clue about how to go about it and I can't get a grant because I was a naughty girl when I was younger.

I'm going to be having a go at some French polishing soon. I tend to be good at doing fiddly things with my hands and I love old things, so it made sense to learn to restore them and make them good again.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
*Wee dude on my right shoulder*
"No. Leave it, ........... don't you think about going there ............. just freakin' LEAVE IT!"

www.amazon.co.uk/Our-Crafty-Lives-Yaldhu...Ladies/dp/095149970X

Here is a book about a group of ladies doing crafts from their home in Hampshire, they had a plethora of crafties who made things and fended for themselves. I know the lady who used to be their postie and saw what can be done with the right kind of people.

They were sort of an early commune with people from all over the world, I have done something similar but from a different angle, this is the direction we are headed.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
Same here lesley. Been toying about with the idea of restoring too... I know I'd be good at it and I love surrounding myself with old things

Most french polishing done in the more recent past, last 100 years or so, was done by women. As they were better at the mundaneness of long repetative tasks . Where as men had a very short attention span to the task in hand

Its a therapeutic chore for defnite, and does have the most illustrious finish , even compared to more modern lacquers and industrial finishes. But its not a very durable finish for high traffic pieces of furniture, and doesn,t like any association with moisture or water. properly thinned and applied polyurethane, and then properly hand finished can give an equal lustre to french polish, and is far more durable.

Give it a go, you will enjoy it.

psketti wrote:
Seriously, I've been getting into this sort of thing for a while now. I want to learn to identify things from different eras and restore things. It all started with a desk that belonged to my great uncle. After several moves, it was looking a bit ropey and some of the finer details were spoiled. I'ts nothing grand, but I like it.

Also, I'm interested in architecture and art history, so antiques are interesting from this point of view too. My house will end up looking like a mausoleum.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
Welcome to my life

I've been dabbling in the wheelin 'n dealin side of it for a good few years now and I love it. Always been a collector of sorts since I was a nipper and used to go round all the jumble sales with my granny at the weekends. Still have some small pieces of jewelery from back then.
Antiques and collectables are fabulous and I have to admit, get me excited. I have hundreds of books on all different subjects and love researching something that I've picked up for dirt cheap from somewhere. It absolutely NEVER get's boring.

There's alot to be said for bringing something back to its original glory so go for it

psketti wrote:
I like the sound of the wheeling and dealing side of it psketti. These things get me excited too, but I've got limited space. Have you found anything good recently? Also, where do you look for stuff?

Well I'll lower the tone.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=french+polishing

hugorune wrote:
Right back at ya

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
Recently, no. But that's down to not being able to get to the shops and not because there isn't anything to buy. And the places I go to are second hand shops, car boots and on occasion little antique shops as there is still the odd bargain to be found even in these places.

Best advice I can give you is get yourself some general antique and collectable books and get stuck into them. You can pick them up really cheap on ebay and amazon and they're worth every penny. The 'Millers' range are in my opinion the best, with Judith Millers being outstanding as far as pictures and info goes. The more you browse through them, the more you'll take in and it wont be long before you'll come across something somewhere and be able to indentify it. It gives you a kick when you do (well it does me )

Thanks psketti. I'm going to have a look for those books. I've found some lovely vintage stuff, as in 30's onwards, it would be good to get stuck into some older stuff.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
There is plenty of antique furniture available at local auctions nowadays, which can be picked up for less than 50 quid, a freind of mine has filled his house with really well made pieces and polished it himself, way better than the modern repro stuff.

A few tips.

For the polishing you need non bleached cotton wool and good quality cotton material for making up your rubbers, after you have finished keep them in an air tight plastic bait box to stop them going dry, keep plenty of heat in the room whilst rubbing up, and wear a hair net.

There are several heat resisting polishes but as Gris says they don't stand up to hot objects or alcohol which will melt them soon as look at it. There is a great technique for removing water marks, which I have seen my freind use many times. He takes a clean cloth soaked in meths, then wrings it out to remove the excess meths, then carefully dabs a tiny amount of the dampness of the cloth onto the water mark and then sets fire to it before it evapourates away, as it burns off it dries out the water by pulling the water upwards, just enough to pull the moisture upwards without melting the polish, use a lighter not a match otherwise the carbon from the match can drop onto the polish and stick to it. Maybe there are some video of it being done on the tube.

Thanks Apprentice.