The irony is the Tories have to borrow to decrease debt, Labour are more Keynesian they would borrow to create growth, jobs and wages,a drop in debt would come after that with a long term approach towards education and the environment gradually the economy would change, new industries would flourish etc.
I don't really know why people get so worked up about debt, debts are fine if you know you can pay them back, it's worth taking loans to start a businesss if you know you'll make enough profit to repay the loan and pay yourself.

Mike wrote:
One man's profit is another man's debt.

pseudo mystical

Profit is the price above and beyond the intrinsic value of something.

Cash is debt based.

Where's the BS?

oioioi wrote: You can't see the wood for the trees.

Mike wrote:
Pseudo mystical

What do you mean by "cash" is debt based.
I kinda see your points as totally irrelevant to the current reality, people take loans to start businesses, government takes loans to do the same thing with a more social conscience, people use cash to buy bread.

cash was put into circulation with the provision we give a bit more of it back. If you can't get your head around that being debt slavery then...

You loan 100,000 to start a business, you owe back 110,000. Where does that extra 10,000 magically appear from?

Why do people sell bread? To clear their business start up loan. So they are including the interest to the bank in my loaf's price.

As a slight aside how the fuck did it become known as "interest"? A somewhat 'odd' choice of word.

oioioi wrote: The 10 "magically appears" from the person who gave you the loan, if you don't want to pay a charge for a service how is the person who lends you his 100k going to buy bread?

oioioi wrote:
www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=interest

Mike wrote:
In what form does it "magically appears" from the person who gave you the loan?

Where does the person buying the bread get the percentage of the cost of a loaf of bread to pay towards the breadmakers interest to the bank?

Ok, let's say the first ever bank note is issued tomorrow, talk us through the process of how that magically generates it's own interest...

Although I have often had plenty of it I have never liked debt. I should be able to buy bread without getting in to debt. Debt occurs mostly because you don't have your next twenty pay checks (cheques) or whatever it might be. The problem with that is that suddenly a car costing $11000 becomes $23000 over five years and if you miss a few payments you don't get to own the car even if you pass the point of paying off the initial $11000.

The problem with the financial system is that it is not anything close to reasonable and fair. As for economic collapse it won't happen unless people in power want it to. An economic crisis is no different to 911 truth. It is viewed differently by different people.

Mike wrote: Which we can't!

You can see a video here, this is from July, 2012:



This was the US national debt at that time:

This is the situation today:

It has increased by nearly $1,000,000,000,000 in nine months. Remember, in the video the guy states that it would take 11,000 years to count to one-trillion if you counted one number per second. So to count to the current level of US debt, it would take over 175,000 years.

These are the unfunded liabilities of the US:

This is what this entails and the source of that information:

Thus, to count to the unfunded liabilities number would take over 1.35 million years.

There is no way of paying the debt back or meeting those liabilities, certainly not one that the political establishment in the US will ever consider. And they're in a much, much better financial position than Europe! That is the reality of the situation, whether or not people choose to accept that is up to them, but it won't make any difference to what actually happens.

oioioi wrote: What do these hypothetical games mean?

You get a loan for 100k, you buy premises and equipment to buy bread, ingrediants, now you put your labour and energy into these raw ingredients to produce a marketable commodity, now you sell that commodity for a competitive price to cover your costs, what don't you get?

Why do you think people should be able to go and get "free loans", with no interest, no financial recompense for the money spent on selling and administering a loan?

Mike wrote:
Where does the interest come from?

from whoever gave you the loan, it's not hard to understand
or do you mean how do people pay back the interest?

What mr Oi means is that the bank is making money from nothing and getting their chicks for free.

Is that what he means IB?
I kinda disagree, the bank is loaning to people, it has costs for doing that, if people need a loan then the bank is providing a service, why shouldn't they charge?

i-baster wrote:
Yeah especially on the mortage front...