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Western Society 15 May 2013 14:01 #1

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I think Wilhelm Reich was on the money when he said this:
The responsibility for wars falls solely upon the shoulders of these same masses of people, for they have all the necessary means to avert war in their own hands. In part by their apathy, in part by their passivity, and in part actively, these same masses of people make possible the catastrophes under which they themselves suffer more than anyone else. To stress this guilt on the part of the masses of people, to hold them solely responsible, means to take them seriously. On the other hand, to commiserate masses of people as victims, means to treat them as small, helpless children. The former is the attitude held by genuine freedom fighters; the latter that attitude held by power-thirsty politicians.

I think this is perfectly illustrated in todays UK where "millions" of outraged citizens opposed the War in Iraq on Friday, but after going out drinking Saturday, watching the news and having a roast that Sunday, were back in their cars burning Iraqi oil come Monday.

If we as a citizenry are intent on perpetual consumption of goods, should we be surprised, shocked or affronted then, when in order to fulfill that demand-and capitalize from it- our leaders engage in global expansionist policies, military resource grabs, enable and merge with transnational Corporations, and use them to subjugate, exploit, and displace indigenous populations of people, to secure the resources required to meet our demands?

Where else really do the inhabitants of a small Island like Britain expect to obtain their endless supply of consumer luxuries, if not by the oppression, occupation and brutalisation of the colonies?
"The prosperity of our people rests really on the oil in the Persian Gulf, the rubber and tin of Malaya, and the gold, copper and precious metals of South- and Central Africa. As long as we have access to these; as long as we can realize the investments we have there; as long as we trade with this part of the world, we shall be prosperous. If the communists were to take them over, we would lose the lot. Governments like Colonel Nasser's in Egypt are just as dangerous."
Julian Amery

Is it not therefore fitting that the political system and structure of the Imperialist countries of Great Britain and the US, seems geared around elevating those most able to tell huge lies with the biggest smiles, those most able to deceive us in the friendliest most charming way, those able to sell the wholesale exploitation and subjugation of their fellow man to positions of eminence in government?

Is it not the nature of political discourse in the last decade or two, that he most able and willing to obfuscate the truths we as people seem unwilling to confront, goes right to the top, rewarded for blind allegiance to religious convictions, capitalist ideology or tradition, with the task of leading whole populations of subservient and dependent people?

We want a nice reassuring smile, someone to tell us "god is on our side", or that "we are serving the ideal of progress" while we chop up the world and waste it's resources.

We are happy as people to perpetuate the concept of limitless consumption being the foundation of a linear drive towards some form of perfection/Utopia, and as little part we play in determining the course towards that end the better.

There are always willing demagogues, aspirants and ideologues waiting in the wings to do the thinking for us, who are more than happy to dictate to us direction this drive should proceed.

We all want the same thing so there is no need for any diversity in the Three political parties, we want commodities, employment, energy and entertainment, these are gladly offered as core policies of all her Majesties' political parties, additions to ensuring those core points are irrelevant; independent parties, true left or right wing parties, any parties with more than superficial values is marginalized, so vaguely left or vaguely right with a mandate for globalization, financial restructuring, neo-liberalisation and good capitalist values is the outcome.

This is thanks in part to the non-political, politically Nationalist and Conservative members of society that live on Indian Tea, Chinese electronics, African Diamonds, Bangladeshi clothing, West Indian sugar, Indonesian minerals, American Gold and Arabian oil, and are thus dependent like children upon the State and it's institutions as being essential to continuing the supply of these demands, and the continuation of the Empire.

If we have happily lived under Plutocratic rule for centuries while it was comfortable, enjoying the privileges of being members of a marauding and war mongering Imperial power, do we have the right to complain in times of enforced austerity to reign in our unsustainable consumption?
Last Edit: 15 May 2013 14:01 by Mike.
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Western Society 15 May 2013 14:22 #2

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I'd agree if you meant those directly involved, members of the armed forces, those building weapons etc. If we all lived in self built homes, grew our own food, rode horses everywhere it'd make no difference to wars occurring if there are still people willing to fight in them.
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Western Society 15 May 2013 14:41 #3

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interesting op.

The idea that the masses should be held responsible a difficult concept to get my head round. On the one hand i agree - but on the other hand 'the masses' are not one huge homogenized entity that are in total agreement with each other. Without mass consensus it is difficult if not impossible to force those who hold power to do as we decree.

As for the consumption part I find it difficult to believe that people are unaware that our 'cheap' goods have a human or environmental cost being as how much information there is out there in the mainstream about it. But i suppose that is easy for me to say as it is something of interest to me so I actively seek it out.
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Western Society 15 May 2013 14:51 #4

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thoreau wrote:
interesting op.

The idea that the masses should be held responsible a difficult concept to get my head round. On the one hand i agree - but on the other hand 'the masses' are not one huge homogenized entity that are in total agreement with each other. Without mass consensus it is difficult if not impossible to force those who hold power to do as we decree.
As it stands we vote on who gets to hold power/who's decrees we follow, most people don't bother, it's not needed when whoever gets in follows the dominant ideology:
We all want the same thing so there is no need for any diversity in the Three political parties, we want commodities, employment, energy and entertainment, these are gladly offered as core policies of all her Majesties' political parties, additions to ensuring those core points are irrelevant; independent parties, true left or right wing parties, any parties with more than superficial values is marginalized, so vaguely left or vaguely right with a mandate for globalization, financial restructuring, neo-liberalisation and good capitalist values is the outcome.

It's about power relations, who needs or wants power when they can have convenience?
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Western Society 15 May 2013 14:59 #5

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Mike wrote:

It's about power relations, who needs or wants power when they can have convenience?

It's way more complicated than that.


the anorak hides the fact that sean is composed of 95% vaginas
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Western Society 15 May 2013 15:11 #6

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what it boils down to is force - whomever has the greatest force will always win out - and mobilizing significant enough people into creating a larger force then that perceived to be held by the elites is difficult due to our innate sense of self preservation.

Religion is used as a means to give people a sense of being part of something greater than themselves and promises of something better then earthly life is used as a way in which to circumvent that sense of self preservation. Sadly people do not feel the same way en masse about the welfare of other humans, the earths resources and other living creatures.
Sometimes, if you stand on the bottom rail of a bridge and lean over to watch the river slipping slowly away beneath you, you will suddenly know everything there is to be known.

“Just living is not enough, one must have sunshine, freedom, and a little flower”
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Western Society 15 May 2013 15:15 #7

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oioioi wrote:
I'd agree if you meant those directly involved, members of the armed forces, those building weapons etc. If we all lived in self built homes, grew our own food, rode horses everywhere it'd make no difference to wars occurring if there are still people willing to fight in them.

This is exactly where i stand with all this also...

I try to tell myself it must be a personal decision to join the Army and fly to another country and kill people for resources.

But i always find myself blaming the parenting of each individual soldier who makes the choice to do these things.

Being a soldier should be viewed as a negative profession in any society but for some reason that's not how it is.

9/11 basically gave tptb a 10 year platform of anti-muslim / arab false patriotism so the elite could achieve these goals.

Which is the reason i became a conspiracy theorist after realizing this in my early 20's.
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Western Society 15 May 2013 15:41 #8

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.......... wrote:
oioioi wrote:
I'd agree if you meant those directly involved, members of the armed forces, those building weapons etc. If we all lived in self built homes, grew our own food, rode horses everywhere it'd make no difference to wars occurring if there are still people willing to fight in them.

This is exactly where i stand with all this also...

I try to tell myself it must be a personal decision to join the Army and fly to another country and kill people for resources.

But i always find myself blaming the parenting of each individual soldier who makes the choice to do these things.

Being a soldier should be viewed as a negative profession in any society but for some reason that's not how it is.
You're not being realistic, have soldiers ever been viewed as a negative aspect of the state?
IMO no, in more or less every state the soldiers are the heroes who protect the State's interests against other states or barbarians.

There are countless examples of heroic battles in which armies defended people from warmongering herds of barbarians, in every case the armed forces are the assertive power of the State, without the US military operations of the last 60 years the 5% who have always benefitted from Western civilization wouldn't have so much wealth, and the 85% underclass wouldn't have such developed surroundings.

Without war, the military, and imperialism life would be very different for us, a lot less luxurious.

You can't Blame soldiers, people and their want's and requirements make war over resources and armed forces necessary.
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Western Society 15 May 2013 16:07 #9

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Mike wrote:
You're not being realistic, have soldiers ever been viewed as a negative aspect of the state?
IMO no, in more or less every state the soldiers are the heroes who protect the State's interests against other states or barbarians.

There are countless examples of heroic battles in which armies defended people from warmongering herds of barbarians, in every case the armed forces are the assertive power of the State, without the US military operations of the last 60 years the 5% who have always benefitted from Western civilization wouldn't have so much wealth, and the 85% underclass wouldn't have such developed surroundings.

Without war, the military, and imperialism life would be very different for us, a lot less luxurious.

You can't Blame soldiers, people and their want's and requirements make war over resources and armed forces necessary.

Fair enough, it's hard for me to argue or debate this with you so i'm going to to ask your opinion on the solution which is this.

How do plan on convincing the majority of people in the UK & US who think their way of life comes from a 40 hour work week?

Because if your not willing to place blame on the Military–industrial complex then basically you have to blame western society.

People in western society will argue with you and say they work 40-50 hour's a week to avoid the anarchy of Uganda.

So where do we go from here and what do you what do you propose to heal the world under these circumstances?

I understand the philosophy behind your OP and honestly wan't to engage in this dialogue with you but need solutions.
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Western Society 19 May 2013 11:45 #10

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Oi was your nam comprendi offendi?
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Western Society 19 May 2013 17:50 #11

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Mike wrote:
Oi was your nam comprendi offendi?


Come again? :think:
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Western Society 19 May 2013 18:22 #12

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Mike wrote:
Where else really do the inhabitants of a small Island like Britain expect to obtain their endless supply of consumer luxuries, if not by the oppression, occupation and brutalisation of the colonies?



Invasions of the British Isles have occurred throughout modern history. Indeed, the various nations comprising the British Isles were invaded several times; by the Romans, Scandinavians, the French, and one another...



The ancestor of "God Save the King" is the song "Great God save the King," composed in 1686 by Madame de Brinon top of the Royal House of St. Louis (future military school of Saint-Cyr ) for inauguration of its establishment in September by the king, who was ill. For words, she was inspired by the motet traditional shot of the last verse of Psalm XIX of David , "Domine, salvum fac Regem exaudi and die in our four invocaverimus you," included in the Te Deum long on different music, as in that of Marc-Antoine Charpentier ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_the_British_Isles
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wales/posts/last_inv...britain_legion_noire
The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you.. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!
Last Edit: 19 May 2013 18:25 by LightGiver.
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