You don't sound more than one or two bad decisions away from finding yourself in need of welfare/benefits/charity, ie. working class.

Is there anybody on the forum who would/could say that they were middle class or upper class?

Space Bandit wrote:
The good old British class system never ceases to confuse me. Ask different people and it means different things. I'm hoping someone can enlighten me. I would like to study it in depth. It is perhaps the most harmful predudice in the UK.

Space Bandit wrote: My view is that there are five classes:

True Elite - major shareholders at central banks and investment banks, and to a lesser extent retail banks and major corporations. Probably some shadowy people who we don’t know about as well.

Pseudo Elite – some mixing between this class and the true elite, but these are the sort of people who turn up for Bilderberg, and other wealthy people that control major corporations and financial sector interests.

Patrician Class – David Cameron, George Osborne, Boris Johnson, Antony Blair, Barack Obama, the Clintons, the Bushes, the Brzezinskis, Silvio Berlusconi, et al. The people that are there to distract attention away from the real elite, but who are nevertheless from a privleged background, fairly wealthy and there to serve the upper echelons of society, which they usually wish to join. Some mixing between this class and the pseudo elite and true elite.

Comfortable Class – The classic American ‘middle-class’, as represented by The Simpsons. Comfortable, some disposable income, don’t get any say in the society whatsoever, don’t usually want one, generally ignore the classes above them or are apologists for them, while trying to make out that they’re better than the class below them. This class could include anyone from relatively well off people – could even be some lower ranking MPs – to people that have menial jobs, and are more likely to be of the baby boomer generation. Although these people are often considered middle-class, the real middle-class is the Patrician Class. All of these people work, or have worked for money that is considered a piss in a pot to the three top social classes.

Underclass – People who are skint. This is the only social class that is increasing, although in global terms it has been the dominant class for decades, and historically has always been the dominant class as well. Social mobility from this class to even the Comfortable Class has almost ended completely; in fact, there is virtually no social mobility at all, except between the bottom two classes.

By my estimation, no-one on SZ is what I would consider to be middle-class, everyone is either in the Comfortable Class or the Underclass.

Do you make money by being told to work? You are working class.
Do you make money by telling people to work harder? You are middle class.
Do you make money by other people? Upper class.

Ish.

I think it also has a bearing on your education, values and what your family does for a living. To make things more confusing you have three or mayby four classes within the middle class.

Upper middle...People with money in the family who have children in public schools/private eduction. They may have a nanny. May have left or right political leanings. Doctors, civil servants people who are very senior in their field of work.

There are middle middle class, who may or not be aspiring to be able to send their children to be privately educated. Nertheless, they fall into two rough categories, the people who are newly middle class in financial terms, but these people may or may not have a University education and may come from a working class background. They are also obsessed with making sure than everyone can see that they make money and are aspirational.

Then there are the worthy hand-wringing Guardian readers. They agonise over whether their Yoga pants are made with organic cotton from an ethical source? Do they have the right kind of eco-friendly cleaning products? Are they home-growing a sufficient range of organic fruit and veg. They would be less likely to drive a flash car, unless it was some sort of electric hybrid. Otherwise they would drive their old banger as a badge of honor, just so others know they are above consumerism. Nevertheless, they just have different status symbols such as local artisan cheeses, Le Cruesette cast iron pots and pans and children all play the flute etc. However, some will drive a naice 4x4. These people are University educated and get a good pay package. Likely to send their kids to a Steiner school or aspire to doing so.

then there are lower middle class. University educated, but in lower paid jobs. Teachers, social workers, physiotherapists, some civil servants etc. They know they can never send kids to private school, yet they are aspirational in other ways. Emphasis on reading and other cultural activities in a bid to gain status.

Thus is my analysis of at least the middle classes.

i can't bloody type properly now. I sometimes take something to give me a bit of help in falling asleep. It appears to be taking effect.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote: This is what I would call the true middle-class. All of the traditional professions, politics and the upper echelons of the military are dominated by these people, who went to Eton, Harrow, etc.

Fuck, can't even post properly now!

You're doing just grand woman

I've spent a great deal of time thinking about the class system. In fact, I've been trying to come up with a subject for a book for a long time.

I would like to write one about how the food people eats relates to the British class system. Where they shop, what they eat, attitudes to what other people eat. Food snobbery etc. How do people see their food choices as relating to the class they think they belong to. How do they see this with other people?

I am probably the only person who would be interested. Nevertheless, I would find it highly satsifying and would like to interview random people and people who may study this field.

No there is only two classes in society Wealthy, and the working poor, everyone i've talked too that works from teachers, tradesmen, to labourers are all struggling now to make ends meet, this country is absolutely FUCKED

People in christchurch are living in earthquake damaged houses, that insurance companies and the EQC have not payed out, and this week some of those people got flooded out from torential rain and now there's a huge snow storm coming,

The insurance companies are broke, so is the EQC( Earthquake Commission) its a tax we pay but the money was squandered on overseas trips paying cunts Millions of dollars per year to run a sinking ship : Then There was AMI the South Islands largest Insurance company went belly up after the Quake yet again the tax payer bailed the company out and yet the cunts, directors etc all got pay increases for fuck sake

Then there was the incident of kitset houses put up for, the people who lost there homes , quess what after 18 months these houses were still empty, fences up not used fucking (beaurcratic bullshit)
And some people were put up in camperfans, low in behold the rugby world cup in 2011, they were kicked out cause of the fucking girls game The Rugby World Cup they needed the campers for the tourists cunts

As i've said people have not had there houses fixed, repaired but yet they have to find alternative living places, so they have a morgage and have to pay rent as well and have furniture, stored and live its a fucking disgrace

The majority of people are so fucking thick ere it ain't funny to selve obsorbed in there own petty bullshit. where they can screw another 50c out of someone less fortunate than them,

yet in my nearest city you can count the homeless on one hand, but thats going to change, places like budget advice, food banks etc are unindated, there is a programme on the box, called the vote its a debate with ex poly's cunts and people who work in social services are debate about poverty in nz and sending children ere to school not fed not clothed properly etc, you could vote by phone twatter, and fuckbook

And you know what the out come was yes for poverty parents are not responsible, and no parents are responsible , the outcome was no

poverty is parents problem , and if you can't feed your children clothe them thats child abuse

And if you think there is any middle ground now, between the well off and the working poor, and the desiltute you are sadly mistaken

I definitely know people in the middle. They earn good money, new cars, fab holidays, designer clothes etc. They are not super wealthy, but they aren't exactly feeling the pinch.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
Depends really, are they single family earners with wife and several kids with all the above too?
If so thats pretty wealthy indeed.

Theres also the the childless family types with both male and female working in say 30k jobs each but with no kids to pay for they can appear wealthy.
Or ofc a single person on the same salary still living with parents.

It gets complicated

Then ofc theres inherited/educated class thats worth considering separately of income.

andyh wrote:
Mostly childless couples where both are working, earning 50k p/a between them at least. I also know a few people like this with children, but they don't have one parent to stays at home. Only a couple of couples manage this on a single income.

This is something that leads me to believe that the recession could be bollocks. If this were to be true. I want my fucking money.

Oh, and I know a handful of people with very affluent parents who don't need to bother sorting themselves out as everything is handed to them on a plate. They also know they will be sorted once their parents croak it. Not a very nice thing to think about, but it's still the truth.

Also, there are the people who appear well off, but it's just for show and they struggle with debt, but that's not being solvent in my book.

Heh I know what you mean

The old classic dad at work and mum at home with several kids and 'the western dream' life etc is something only achievable with some serious wonga.
IMHO I'd estimate around 120k+ if employed, perhaps 80k+ self employed and that'd be sterling btw for a UK example.

Elsewhere higher or lower depending on location, certainly a fair bit lower in the US but real quality of life is difficult to get IMHO.
Quality of life only comes with small working hours and plenty of spare time, along with worry free and crime free living so the whole package is one hell of a tall order. Again something like that is only going to come with inherited land and income IMHO or a bloody lottery win, even then its still easily pissed away if you're not careful.

I'm not so sure it really matters what class actually is or if anyone can actually come to any agreed definition.

The only thing I know for sure is that the workers salary has decreased at the same time as efficiency has increased ever since the 70's which was around the same time as computers arrived mainstream and which was the same time reaganomics and thatcherism arrived along with chavs appearing shortly thereafter, along with huge marriage splitups, stabbings became a daily occurrence and people in positions of importance got away with some truly incredible shit...cumulating in the banking bailout and the blaming it on doleys/immigrants/govt spending.

I suppose there are 2 classes in life, the ones who give a shit and the ones who don't.

All employers want their pound of flesh. I am doing a lot of graphic design work for a company at the moment. It comes in spurts though. Right now they need a lot of stuff, so I'm busy with that. Published material, banners, adverts etc. To be honest, I love it. They money isn't fantastic, but I have a good relationship with them.

Put it this way, I would be hard pushed to find a job paying the same hourly rate in my neck of the woods as they do. I wouldn't describe my lifestyle as particulary comfortable and Mr P doesn't earn much. Mind you, I'm enjoying work at the moment and get treated far better than I would if I were working as an employee for a company.