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TOPIC: Are you a Sexual Libertine?

Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 17:19 #1

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...and what does this term mean to you?
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 17:20 #2

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This young ladies pov:
Is Sexual Libertinism Morally Acceptable?

One of the thinkers associated with this concept of sexual libertinism is the Marquis de Sade. Sexual libertinism or libertinage is a natural sexual drive inherent and inspired in us by nature. It manifests itself in a number of different ways including rape, incest, prostitution, and sodomy. These four, according to De Sade, are considered most immoral by society. In my opinion the concept itself cannot be immoral because we have no control over what we involuntarily feel. Some of the actions inspired by libertinage however, I consider immoral. They are rape and incest.

De Sade argues that all things inspired by libertinage are fine and should not be considered immoral or something to be ashamed about. He has based his reasoning on nature. He argues first of all that sex is not a crime when it is used for other purposes besides reproduction. This is because if indeed it was wrong and against nature, nature would not allow it. But since nature mandates it by allowing the spillage of sperm and allowing man to derive pleasure from it in other situations, it can be said that it is all right. In defending the actions inspired by libertinage, he also looks to nature. In the case of rape, he argues that man’s natural strength over women, given to him by nature, signifies that nature intended for him to subdue women if they would not freely give themselves. In order to justify incest, he says members of one’s family are the people that nature commands one to love the most. Since sex is not a crime, it should not be a crime to share it with the people one loves the most. Sodomy and prostitution are also acceptable because from his position, the real crime would be in denying what one’s body wants. If a man desires another man and gets pleasure only from other men, being with a woman would mean denying his body – living a lie.

I agree with De Sade on some matters of libertinage and disagree with him on some others. On the issues of prostitution and sodomy, I can agree that they should be morally acceptable. Morality is a sense of right and wrong, often conditioned in us by society and our religious beliefs. What is considered moral is therefore mostly subjective as societies and religions vary from place to place. However, I think that when two people have a mutual agreement on what is right or wrong for them, then it is moral for them. For the most part, people’s religious beliefs and/or their governments, define for them, what is moral and what is not. Religion plays a more significant and personal role in shaping people’s views on right or wrong. However, not everyone in every society is religious. It is therefore still up to people to an extent to decide for themselves what is morally acceptable.In the case of prostitution, as long as one is not being forced into it by another person, then it is not immoral. If one makes the choice to be a prostitute as a means of making a living, it is one’s choice. Our bodies belong to us, if one chooses to use it as a tool to make a living, then by all means, it is all right.I do not think sodomy is immoral. I say this because I do not think that any one makes a conscious decision to be homosexual. I do not see why anyone would anyway as they are often victims of discrimination, hate and injustice. Just as people do not generally decide at some point to be attracted to the opposite sex, people do not decide to be homosexual either. It is natural. Now, as long as one homosexual is not forcing sodomy upon another person, then there is nothing immoral about sodomy.

The way I see it, in the matter of rape, there is no mutual consent. For a man to have sex with a woman against her will is immoral because even though he might see it as his right, bestowed on him by nature, the woman does not agree with this thought. If we are all free men and women, according to De Sade, and we belong to ourselves, then there should be no “possessing” of one or the other, temporarily or otherwise. I also consider incest immoral. This is again a matter of consent. In most cases of incest, it is usually an older person like a parent, being with say his or her child. In a case like that there is no true consent even if the child does not resist. This is because a parent who has loved and cared for the child is in a position of trust and can exert undue influence on the child. This child may not even have his or her own well defined sense of what is right or wrong and therefore there can be no agreement between both parties.Someone may disagree with me on the issue of incest by saying that sometimes it is also between consenting siblings, for example. While that may be true, there is still the issue of undue influence. This sibling may be someone whom it has been impressed upon one to love unconditionally, care for, and cater to as family. In the event that such a sibling tries to have sex with one, one may be opposed to it but the loyalty conditioned in one may overcome any objections.

If De Sade were to disagree with me, it would be on the premise that one should love one’s family and that if one chooses to show this love through a “good thing” like sex, then it is fine. That’s fine but in truth not all families love one another naturally. There are siblings who hate one another or parents who hate their children and vice versa. If they are not naturally inspired to love their family members, then it is possible that those who do love their family members do so because of conditioning. In that case, the argument of expressing one’s “love” for another family member as “commanded” by nature does not follow.

So, while I agree with Marquis de Sade that sexual libertinism is not something to be ashamed of as it is inspired naturally in everyone, based on my own morals, I cannot agree that some of its inspired actions are morally acceptable. Because of the subjectivity of morality, I cannot say that his views are wrong either. I just do not agree with some of them. I separate the concept of libertinage and the actions it inspires. This is because, while we cannot help the basic sexual instincts in us, we can control what we do about those feelings. If each person were to freely let their instincts guide them or to freely do whatever they considered moral without the agreement of others, there would be a state of total chaos.

4rmmyheart2yours.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/...rtinism-morally.html
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 17:33 #3

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I've been thinking about this lately...a lot. From the pov of a gayer I mean. There are some fundamentals of that aspect of what I refer to as being a part of my 'self' which have always lead me to question things like this.

What I had never considered about this term in particular, are some of DeSade's ideas and influences, particularly around rape and incest. I realise that historically, things like this may have been viewed very differently and that there may be some things lost in translation or even sensationalised...but I still don't quite get it.

To me, the above term refers only to consensual acts between two (or more!) adults. What I mean is, this is what the term makes me think about. A person you might refer to as the above is someone very in touch with the physical aspect of themselves. They may be very unhibited sexually, which needn't necessarily be a bad thing and certainly, they would be open to try new things. Imo, so many people allow themselves, whether or not consciously, to have the sexual aspect of their 'self' influenced by other people. Religious texts, the media, their peers...this has always been bonkers-barmy to me and still surprises me today just how many people I come across that have never really thought about what makes them do what (or who) they do.

I know that I am attracted to people of the same sex and always have been. I cannot account for this aspect of my self but I am accutely aware that it has just always been that way for as long as I can remember. Similarly, I'm sure heterosexual people would say the same. Stereotypes aside (I am aware of the irony of that statement coming from me), what makes a person, regardless of their sexuality, 'fast' or 'easy' or 'morally reprehensible' and perhaps more importantly, why should it be the concern of anyone but that person?

If that makes me anything less than a 'sexual libertine', then so be it.
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Last Edit: 02 Oct 2013 17:44 by Abs.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 17:39 #4

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www.audioenglish.org/dictionary/libertine.htm
• LIBERTINE (noun)
The noun LIBERTINE has 1 sense:

1. a dissolute person; usually a man who is morally unrestrained

Familiarity information: LIBERTINE used as a noun is very rare.

• LIBERTINE (adjective)
The adjective LIBERTINE has 1 sense:

1. unrestrained by convention or morality

Familiarity information: LIBERTINE used as an adjective is very rare.
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 17:54 #5

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I think he was just trying to use an intellectual means of justifying his self-centered pigishess. He didn't care about his partners' consent, and ignored that it's in a lot of people's nature to not want to be raped and tortured so that others can get their jollies off. Is his right to express his natural urges more important than others' natural urge to feel safe and protected?

You could attempt to apply his logic to a lot of things, but it's ridiculous. Like, if I got the urge to leap out of a tree onto the milkman while he's doing his rounds; straddle his face, then remove his ears with a pick-axe. It must be perfectly natural to do such a thing because otherwise, I wouldn't have got the urge.

And some social conditioning makes good sense.

I'm all for experimentation, and wouldn't dream it was my place to tell others what they can do - except if there's an unwilling victim.

And his views on incest seem odd to me, because he's talking about love as if it's the same thing as sex, which imo it isn't. There are sound practical reasons for avoiding shagging your sister, such as congenital deformities in off-spring, which seems to me to imply that nature's not keen on it.
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Last Edit: 02 Oct 2013 17:55 by Gilly.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 17:58 #6

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Very well said, Gilly.

I thought I'd post though as according to the definition, this is what I am. :umm:

Still, 'definitions' eh? Meh... :coffee:
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Last Edit: 02 Oct 2013 17:58 by Abs.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:01 #7

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But only to a degree, don't you think? I'd see you as being an adventurous free-spirit, but not some ruthless predator who doesn't give a stuff about other people.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:05 #8

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Thanks. I'd like to think the same too!
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:08 #9

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I'd shag you. :thumbup:

Well only if you were up for it, which you're not, if you see what I mean. :D
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Last Edit: 02 Oct 2013 18:09 by Gilly.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:11 #10

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I also think that lust is much like any appetite in that, if you're not mindful of the possibility, it can rob you of self-determination.

When a fairly natural appetite is allowed to dominate the rest of our nature, there is a trade off. And one with diminishing returns.

In the case of the natural healthy impulse to eat (i.e. a good healthy appetite), we are nourished and sustained by it and it allows us to pursue other pleasurable activities like sport or sex or exploration etc

If this appetite is allowed to dominate the other aspect of our life, then sex and sport exploration etcetera become difficult for the person as they gain weight or think of nothing else but food

So too with any pleasure including sex.

Quagmire from Family Guy is a fairly good caricature of this person

Avarice (Greed for wealth) is even more dangerous to others however
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Last Edit: 02 Oct 2013 18:14 by mikey mikey.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:13 #11

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"he argues that man’s natural strength over women, given to him by nature"

Nah, if a girl has strong legs, the man quickly learns who the boss is.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:15 #12

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Gilly wrote:
I'd shag you. :thumbup:

Well only if you were up for it, which you're not, if you see what I mean. :D

Hmmm...I suppose if I were a true libertine I'd be well up for it?!

EDIT: Not to suggest that you aren't anything but adorable, gorgeous and sexy yourself. Sorry, just realised how that could be read. :umm:

I trust you got my meaning. :angel:

If I liked lady-parts, your bangers would be particularly appealing to me I reckon. But don't tell scabetti.
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Last Edit: 02 Oct 2013 18:25 by Abs.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:15 #13

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Or when he goes to sleep, she can cut his dick off
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 18:46 #14

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Gilly's pretty much covered what I wanted to say. I'm in agreement to a point with the Marquis but when he disregards others 'nature' then he's overly contradictory. As an activity that is healthy, pleasurable and free oddly we tend to be discouraged from partaking daily (when I say discouraged it isn't encouraged in the same way a few pints in the local may be encouraged socially) whereas I'd gladly skip one of my 3 daily meals to get some!

And as much as I resent not being bi I don't see how me not being attracted to the same sex is any more or less natural than being attracted to the same sex, opposite sex, other species! I do agree with the loose use of 'natural' in this sense I suppose! If it has occurred it is a part of nature, whether it is an aspect we should revere or not is a different matter. Going to the loo to take a shit isn't natural, letting it seep down your leg is, doesn't make it right though!
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 19:15 #15

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Sade was an extreme sadist, hence the fact that it's called sadism! But even those in the most extreme sado-masochistic relationships today wouldn't endorse his views, let alone think that everyone should adhere to them as a generally shared moral code.

If you took that argument to its conclusion then you could say that it's perfectly natural for people to covet others' wives and girlfriends, so it's therefore acceptable to murder their lovers so that they're available. It's really an argument of 'might is right', which is never a very wise path to traverse.

If you put a really strong woman, for example Serena Williams, with a male dwarf (or whatever the politically correct term is), does that mean it would be okay for her to rape the dwarf if she felt like it?

He's talking fucking rubbish.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 19:21 #16

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I really don't care what consenting adults do in their own bedrooms so long as its consenting and so long as its adults, are we going to have cops policing bedrooms now?
Rape is obviously not consenting hence why its rape basically...
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 19:21 #17

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oioioi wrote:
And as much as I resent not being bi...

:chuckle: I like that. Twice the thrill potential.
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Last Edit: 02 Oct 2013 19:21 by Gilly.
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 19:22 #18

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
He's talking fucking rubbish.

He certainly is. However, the might makes right (anti-)ethos is more prevalent than is at first apparent.

Hence the madness you and I see around us.

Ever wondered why so much of the language surrounding abuse and rape is used these days, especially in competitive things like Sport and business.

"We fucked them over" "They took it in the ass!" "I will fuck you up!" "You're ass is mine" ad nauseum
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 19:32 #19

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Gilly wrote:
oioioi wrote:
And as much as I resent not being bi...

:chuckle: I like that. Twice the thrill potential.

I do!

I'm highly sexed, not so much as in my twenties but still....with a much wider playing-field I'd have probably used less substances!

Interestingly, as a teen, my 2 best mates experimented (on each other), I watched knowing I had no interest (turned out neither did they) but they are also the same mates who failed to talk me into joining them for a trip up town for an experience with a prostitute. Were/are they more libertine than I am for trying or were they just feeble-minded and that unsure of themselves that they had to try? :dunno:

*ETA I still stand by my darkened room hypothesis, stick me and Abs in a darkened room, give us both a glory hole each and two clean shaven mouths, we'd struggle to identify if it was same or opposite gender mouth pleasuring us therefore I theorise that sexual preference is actually in the head, how it gets there is another matter!
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Are you a Sexual Libertine? 02 Oct 2013 19:43 #20

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I honestly don't know whether that's true or not. There's pheromones, and male & female bods feel different due to muscle & fat proportions, typically. If it was pitch black I think I'd know whether it was a man or a woman with a strap-on device. But it's a different question as to whether or not there'd be any difference in pleasure obtained from those two scenarios.

A lot of sex is in the head as you say.
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