Oh yes: I really mean what the title says!

Who has information and / or personal experience that has persuaded them that we are living in a "Creation" that has been intelligently designed and may or not be running according to a kind of program that enables individuals to "predict/prophecy" the future. Not just the biblical account familiar to most, but also from other cultures, myths, legends, and supported by facts, science and / or anything you can think of.

Any wise guys please start a counter thread in the humour section, but don't waste other people's valuable time. So far I've been really impressed how the forum works, but I know how a few idiots can spoil things for everyone as is seen on DI forum.

This is also not intended as a "My God is Bigger then your God" or "God Bashing" or "Atheist Bashing" thread. I will be quoting from sources where I don't necessarily agree with all their claims and interpretations, but there is in my opinion a core of facts that support the argument that we are living in a "Creation" of some kind.

Let the debate commence!

Many people claim that the fact that phi crops up all over the place is evidence of intelligent design, from stuff like the ratio of bone lengths in the fingers and dimenions of facial features to the curve of spiral galaxies.

martg wrote:
A very good start!

Which can lead nicely into lots of geometrical, mathematical, geomantic themes that would argue against a chaotic and random development of the Universe and everything in it. The beauty of that angle of research is the natural beauty to be found there!

There is also the fact that ancient civilizations were not only aware of the sacred proportions, but that they incorporated them into their building designs and symbolism long before mainstream modern science would generally give them credit for.

Another interesting area is how supposedly primitive peoples have knowledge which is now recognized as cutting edge science.

Very interesting topic! To my mind, the universe and everything in it is far too complex simply to have arisen by mere chance. That really doesn't seem very likely (although of course I'd never bash anyone for their beliefs!). I wouldn't call myself a "literal" Creationist, though - for example, I don't think that the world was created in 6 days flat - but I do believe in a Creator God and "intelligent design".

If you're going to ask me for concrete evidence, though, I'm afraid I don't have any (other than having noticed something of the complexity of the world we live in) - I'm not a scientist and in some things I have to "walk by faith, not by sight"!

Mandy

Interesting thread Anthony.....it SHOULD be too cos it has the biggest questions OF ALL......but we will never know the answers...... or WILL we !!!! Maybe by the end of this thread, we will know!!!

We breath without being conscious of it - Our brain (or something) apparently does it for us without us consciously having to instruct our body to do it.
Our blood is pumped around our body, and if our skin is cut, then we bleed, but the injury scabs over.

The spirals of stars that we see in space.

"Infinity" means that any outcome is possible. This means that ANY formation is possible. Time doesnt REALLY exist. Therefore, what we are seeing is all happening together, and not separately - A billion years is really 1 nanosecond and vice versa. When we look at the stars, we see it from a mind perspective, it's an illusion that looks like a design, we see patterns, in the same way that when we were kids, the front of cars looked like faces, but as we grow older we dont see the faces anymore. When we were kids, the clouds looked like faces, animals etc. It's really just a state of flux, but we cant recognised states of flux cos it has no pattern. We are obviously gonna see patterns within states of flux, but that is because our brains work that way,

On the other hand, humans are inteligent (i dont know how to spell that word lol ) and WE can "design" stuff, therefore inteligence DOES exist. If inteligence EXISTS, then there yer go!

It's almost impossible to discuss this stuff

If someone made the universe then how did that person exist beforehand if there was no universe?
Also who made the guy who made the universe? ( or gal, trying not to be sexist here in case dawn pulls me up on it :p )

andyh wrote:
The answer to the highlighted bit is that ANOTHER guy made that guy.

It's the evidence part of the argument which is perennially absent.
There are fantasies and speculations aplenty but there is never any evidence offered.

The inclusion of the Matrix in the list is a good example of analogous fiction being adopted as a credible reference point.
Religion grew from the same seed imo. An illustrative narrative to explain the complexities of our surroundings and ourselves in the absence of scientific observation and data collection/analysis.

Religion has backtracked regularly on it's claims in the face of science, science has yet to backtrack as a consequence of religious evidence challenging it's position.

We see enough deformities and outright failures in nature to conclude that if there is an intelligent creator, he's a bit slack in the Quality Control Dept.

Steevo wrote:
And another guy and another and another and...well it ends up geting silly

feather wrote:
Mostly the human QA dept, lol

Has a human EVER created/discovered ANYTHING original without first aquiring information that came to them from someone else, or aquiring the information by stumbling upon it by "chance", or by seeing someone else doing something, and their perception of what that person was doing/did, led to them creating/discovering something. Are we really able to think any TRULY original thoughts/ideas ?

Maybe we are individually just cogs in a brilliant "machine", and the cogs (us) are brilliantly made, but dont do ANYTHING that we havent been programmed to do. Today I am a cog, but later on (I know that time dont exist btw ) later on I may be something else in the machine. The "machine" has ALWAYS existed and will ALWAYS exist, there was no beginning and no end. The machine is concious, and everypart of the machine is experiencing itself subjectively ON A NEED TO KNOW BASIS

andyh wrote: Until you peel back all the layers and finally get a glimpse at the scheming dolphin playing us all for his twisted amusement. [/ab's]

I mentioned that we individualy are cogs in a "machine" (the universe). We are also cogs individually in the system (society) and everything is again on a need to know basis for each cog, and as cogs we are functioning correctly in the system, but we are not functioning correctly as cogs in the universe. But if we gained some knowledge/information that had always been hidden from us by the system controllers, then maybe we COULD function correctly within the Universe, and then things would start going better for humanity. But until that day comes, we will remain as well oiled cogs WITHIN THE SYSTEM, and things will always go bad for humanity, because the system's machine has been designed with that outcome in mind. Thankfully we ARE starting to find out stuff that we was previously hidden from us

I almost did my own head in this afternoon thinking about this (awesome op btw) and I literally have nothing - I personally cannot fathom a 'creator' but then I can't really get my head around the idea of how 'big' the universe actually could be - or the parallel worlds - dimensions or even the idea that space goes on for infinity - I mean is space like a vacuum that is inside something? if not then my brain just cannot comprehend the enormity of it all if I am honest.

I am open to almost all possibilities but persuaded thus far of none.

quietgirl wrote:
G'day Quietgirl.

The six days of creation in the Genesis myth is actually a 'hidden' description of how to create the Flower of Life (FoL), as can be seen in this video presentation ...



... though I would steer clear of Drunvalo Melchisedek (a CIA plant), the sacred geometry aspect is one of the keys to the 'Ancients' knowledge.

There was another presentation on youtube that IO downloaded a number of years ago which isn't from the Drunvalo Melchisedek crowd. It's basically the same information though. As advised in the video, I recommend drawing the pattern yourself as it will give you a different perspective and a more complete recognition of what is being discussed in the video presentation.

andyh wrote:
G'day Andyh.

Exactly ... infinite regression.

Religion is basically taught in 3 ways; for the masses; for the initiate; for the master.That which is taught to the masses is the same as to the initiate and the master, though the interpretation of it is completely misrepresented to 'hide' the true information. For instance ...

The number of the beast ... 666.

In numerology, the number six is the centre of the mind plane on the birth chart and represents creativity. When lived positively it is very creative, when lived negatively it is very destructive. The number 9 is representational of the right sided activity of the brain, imagination. It is the three fold number (3 x 3 = 9) an is the number of man, representing idealism, responsibility and ambition. Also, in numerology, each number is added together until it is reduced to a single digit (except for the 10, 11 and 22).

So, in Revelations 13:18, when it states ...

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

... we show our "wisdom" of numerology and our "understanding" when we "count" the numbers. Hence ...

6 + 6 + 6 = 18 ... 1 + 8 = 9

... note the first total counting is the number of the line in chapter 13, that is, the 18th line. From numerology, we also know that the number of man is 9, the second total, which is also stated in the text, "for it is the number of a man". There's more to it of course, though this should be enough to show that the knowledge is 'hidden in plain sight'.

andyh wrote:
Good question, andy - I can only attempt to answer from IMHO. Firstly, I don't think of God as a "person" - He (I call Him He for want of a better pronoun and because I was brought up to do so!), and secondly, a Creator does not need to be Created. It's really hard to get one's head round but "He" has no beginning, and no end.

Mandy

@ IAAIA - that vid you posted looks really interesting - I'll have a good watch of it later when I can concentrate better!

Mandy

andyh wrote:
Why do I see you holding a pint of guinness as you throw in these philosophical points?

Some excellent input already. I'll have to read through them all carefully. I do have some stuff ready which I hope will cause some jaws to drop and chins to be scratched. More guinness for Andy.

I don't think we should try to understand everything at once, and some things might stay forever out of our grasp, but we will still benefit if we get a bit further in our understanding.

I try to distinguish between different levels of creation. For example, is there evidence of creation of humans, life on earth? Is there evidence of ancient knowledge of the measurements of earth that could show that someone knew a lot more than we assume they would have? Is there any evidence of creation (or modelling) in our solar system. The moon for example, and probably the weirdest object I've come across; Iapetus, one of the moon's of Saturn. Very strange. And on, and on, through the galaxy and galaxies, and on to discussions that pretty much necessitate alcohol to be supped and pipes to be smoked (I don't smoke, but a pipe, even empty lends gravitas to any situation). Matrix, holograms, and on, and on.

Excellent contributions so far!

Anthony65 wrote:
Murphys maybe, I don't like guinness
My fave tipple is some decent rioja