andyh wrote: I'd rather be mocked for an optimistic statement and know what I said is true, than be welcomed into the position of nihilistic pessimism with open arms.

Of course it has potential as an mass organization of Labour, shit if it didn't have potential it wouldn't be so thoroughly corrupted by bourgeois reformists, opportunist professional politicians trying to make a name for themselves, even Noam Chomsky isn't as condescendingly arrogant as you to suggest Organized Labour doesn't have potential.

Guevarista wrote:
Organized labour has no potential if its organised by someone other than yourself for yourself.
You'll learn, one day

The labour party has potential...LMFAO!!

In 1893, Hardie and others formed the Independent Labour Party, an action that worried the Liberals, who were afraid that the ILP might, at some point in the future, win the working-class votes that they traditionally received.

Hardie hit the headlines in 1894 when, after an explosion at a colliery in Pontypridd which killed 251 miners, he asked that a message of condolence to the relatives of the victims be added to an address of congratulations on the birth of a royal heir (the future Edward VIII). The request was refused and Hardie made a speech attacking the monarchy, which resulted in uproar in the House of Commons and helped contribute to the loss of his seat in 1895. Interestingly, the speech's predictions would become completely true in time:

"From his childhood onward this boy will be surrounded by sycophants and flatterers by the score—[Cries of ‘Oh, oh!’]—and will be taught to believe himself as of a superior creation. [Cries of ‘Oh, oh!’] A line will be drawn between him and the people whom he is to be called upon some day to reign over. In due course, following the precedent which has already been set, he will be sent on a tour round the world, and probably rumours of a morganatic alliance will follow—[Loud cries of ‘Oh, oh!’ and ‘Order!’]—and the end of it all will be that the country will be called upon to pay the bill. [Cries of Divide!]"

That is actually your opinion.
I would say though the Labour party has potential and has contributed much to the UK in the past, it's actually never gone far enough to redress the balance of power, dominance of capitalism and inequality created by centuries of entrenched and ill gotten wealth in this country.

I agree with all of that.

I do wonder whether "freedom" is ever actually possible though, it's one of those words with many definitions eh?

Guevarista wrote:
Put it this way, you can have more freedom or less.
Social welfare is not freedom, its comfort.
Comfort is really what most people are looking for in their lives, happiness in other words.
Can you ever truly know happiness though if it is provided for you? A soma pill perhaps?

andyh wrote: I sleep well in any bed provided for me?
Also i experience happiness providing things for other people, you must get that being a family man?

I agree sort of, reforming capitalism slightly by achieving collective bargaining rights, free access to healthcare and education, though beneficial, do not facilitate the attainment of freedom by simply reforming some aspects of the capitalist system.

Guevarista wrote: Absolutely yep.
I earn enough to do that myself though, no state involvement or help whatsoever.

How about just earning enough to not need any of the above?
How about the right to build your own home, your own garden, your own food?
How about an education without boundaries and without bias?
How about being able to appreciate art and beauty and spirituality for what it is without having to be told or a part of the fold?

What are you without any of this apart from some kind of soulless automaton destined to be born in to a system whereby you suffer and slave your way into the grave with nothing in the way of aspiration other than to get the next welfare handout or bank loan or paycheque that just keeps you on 'soma'?

I am still a part of this Godforsaken system, I cannot avoid but being a part of it, it is THAT which pisses me off more than anything else tbh. At least I have learned what truly matters though and at least I understand and see the prison bars in front of me.
I am under no illusion.

andyh wrote: Yes all the questions you ask are present as motivations and aspirations in my mind, your post is a powerful critique of the way things currently stand
I suspect you think i;m under some illusions but I can live with that because really we agree on most things.

NB: I like the venus project's basic concept not necessarily 'domes' or any of the design stuff which may or may not necessarily have to be anything like Fresco envisioned.

andyh wrote:
So glad you included the bold bit

It's that milkman back in the day innit