andyh wrote:
Indeed, it differs to some degree but the influence is clear.

Alright seeing as Gue can't come up with it himself I'll explain.

Anarcho syndicalism does not seek the approval or vote via govt or any other authority such as unions the wants of the people.
It does it for themselves.

National syndicalists seek to vote into power a govt which provides for them a total state ownership and control of all business which gives the workers better pay.

One leads to peace the other to tyranny and ultimately world war. Both are called the '3rd way' only one is called FASCISM.

Mondragon is not anarcho-syndicalist imo, I have quoted you Chomsky and other Social Scientist's saying so, I've highlighted the founder was a Christian Distributist who kept Mao's Little Red Book, what more can I do to convince you? IMO it's not based on the principles of Anarchism but on the principles of hierarchy, christian "charity", socialized production and central planning it operates as a producer of private wealth held nationally and exploits cheap foreign labour markets abroad, there are class distinctions within Mondragon, this doesn't at all seem Anarchist to me?

Class based revolutionary Anarchism is part of what Griffin refers to when he says "Destructive Marxist Socialism" imo, which literally means destroying the Bourgeois State a prospect that obviously makes Griffin man tremble, but I know you and about three other people share your own definition of anarchy which is basically a petit bourgeois conservative appropriation that you call "evolution"

I don't think you can consider Mondragon separately from the fact it was instituted in rural poverty in post War Spain and is based upon pre-existing, regional bonds and Basque solidarity, as I said to you a few times in the past it's not an Anarchist Syndicalist network in the same sense an Anarcho syndicalist network would be here where our Fascists haven't been killed in a large Civil War

It's really obvious why Nick Griffin likes the model actually.

You're right Andy.

But did you really expect a straigh answer?

Detractors of this admirable (albeit imperfect) collective may feel that logical rational debate may not be as effective as associating it with less admirable socio-econmic sytems.

José María Arizmendiarrieta probably had quite a library but a rumour that he kept a book of Mao does not make him a Maoist nor make Mondragon similar to Commnist China. Thanks for providing a perfect example of what I as addressing in my previous post.

In what way is it imperfect to you mikey, I've been the only one so far to explain why I think it's imperfect.

Guevarista wrote:
No you have not.

It is imperfect as the same way your eyesight and/or reading comprehension skills are imperfect.

Guevarista wrote:
That because you expect ALL anarchism to be about ayn randian I'm alright jack fuck you - ism.

mikey mikey wrote:
He had a LIBERAL EDUCATION something methinks many suffer from lacking...

mikey mikey wrote: Show me where I said Mondragon was similar to Communist China

The fact he developed Mao's economic theories is relevant as they were dealing with the same material conditions of Poverty post fascist occupation and huge social devastation after wars.

That's called applying the Marxist method of Historical Materialism, the science of the development of social structures

Who was the Brazilian Priest who was a radical socialist reformer and led a band of Guerrillas into the mountains, Conselero? you know him too?

andyh wrote:
Nope, not at all.
Oi's not like that, just you

andyh wrote:
Indeed he taugh Humanism right along side Catholicism.

Hardly a Cultural Revolution, is it?

However, Gue has it on good authority that there was rumour, according to a bloke down the pub that someone's missus said that he once ate fish n chips out of an issue of Voice of Freedom so he was obviously a BNP member, innit?

As for criticism from Chomsky: yes amidst high praise he says
That’s a step forward but you also have to get beyond that to dismantle the system of production for profit rather than production for use. That means dismantling at least large parts of market systems. Take the most advanced case: Mondragon. It’s worker owned, it’s not worker managed, although the management does come from the workforce often, but it’s in a market system and they still exploit workers in South America, and they do things that are harmful to the society as a whole and they have no choice. If you’re in a system where you must make profit in order to survive. You are compelled to ignore negative externalities, effects on others.
www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/30/talking-with-chomsky/

Yes I know which again substantiates my point that the ANARCHO part -defined by Chomsky in the same article y ou quote- is severely lacking in Mondragon.

If they applied the model in Venezuela it would be more likely to succeed, in the UK it would become an abomination, imho.

Guevarista wrote:
If Mondragon is national syndicalist where is the vote and provision from the national government to get what they want?



Have you ever heard the expression full of shit Gue?

Guevarista wrote:
So you think, you can ask oi ofc

Guevarista wrote:
the word for councilor in Portuguese is conselheiro, and Antônio Conselheiro (Anthony the Councilor, real name Antônio Vicente Mendes Maciel,) was about as different from Arizmendiarrieta as one could be.

Nice swerve/bid for tangent there.

andyh wrote:
Gue-ano?

mikey mikey wrote:
LOL!!!

Guevarista wrote:
You mean via nick griffin cos theyre too pathetic to do it themselves right?
Or perhaps via a union.....? :p

andyh wrote: I never said it was national syndicalist, syndicalism to my knowledge is a tactic for overthrowing class oppression?
I said it was Basqu Nationalist, and IMO that is a key part of it's success, the region has enjoyed relative autonomy from the Spanish State, short of instituting it in the Republic of Ireland through existing worker's organizations, I think you'd struggle outside of the organized socialist workers movement in the UK to establish an exact replica.
The reason I find it interesting is that it has alot of the components that make up this board, and Marxism is definitely part of that, I'm gonna read up on it all anyway, I;m not gonna simply dismiss Mondragon as bullshit, it's obvious the Cooperative model can be applied to different Political ends so should be thoroughly observed, at least we're not just dismissing it as bullshit like many people will do because of Nick Griffin