See i find myself in agreement with you on lots of things gue...

Such as what you just said about labour and money. Grossly inflated importance doesnt go far enough for me though

I wouldn't phrase it as class consciousness but yes, i basically agree that for many reasons, the workers are increasingly aware of the systems which chain them to wage slavery etc. I think you're right that the main raising of awareness is above and beyond the economic.

As much as i concur with certain key ideas of marx's thoughts, there's a fair bit that's plain dumb. I think this inbuilt dumbness is a major factor in why marx inspired revolutions have tended to be epic fails (in terms of equality etc)
I personally see great benefit in cherry picking the good bits of ANY school of thought. There's much to be had from marx for example.

But put it this way, if there were a marxist revolution in britain, i'd be heading down a mineshaft.
I wouldn't feel the same if a network of co-ops sprang up though.

Nope politics is relevant in my view, you should just always vote tactically against the Tories imo, but yeah i meant more like lobby groups, think tanks, university societies, collective bargaining, community organizing etc.
Politics:
the practice or study of the art and science of forming, directing, and administrating states and other political units; the art and science of government; political science
the complex or aggregate of relationships of people in society, esp those relationships involving authority or power

It's born naturally from a position of anti autoritarianism, and is how Social apes were able to overthrow the Patriarchal Alpha male system

dubmeup wrote: I don't know if I agree RE the cherry picking really, you end up on unsteady ground or in a patchwork religion.
If you consistently disagree with everything you eventually find what's solid, I'm dissappointed Dubs, It would be a weaker revolution in your absence imo.

Guevarista wrote:
We overthrew it?
W00t? When was that?

When Gue's Action Man dealt the old one-two to Skeletor and rescued My Little Pony.

Way before the overthrow of Goddess worship which you can read about in the Babylonian mythology

It's my view that in the space between our abandonment of the primate Alpha male system to our relatively recent recorded/written history human beings organised and bred Matrilinally, societies were Matriarchal and our departure from that is the basis of exploitative human relations, the concept of ownership and private property.

Me thinks he doesn’t have the first clue on what Marxism is/was about but whatever... good on him for seeing the light Anarcho-syndicalism, provided he’s being honest which is rather impossible to believe. Or like Andyh pointed out; he probably doesn’t even understand he was talking about anarcho-syndicalism in the first place.

Guevarista wrote:
Perhaps look at it this way gue, if you don't cherry pick but merely follow one model/view laid out by another/others, THEN you are essentially part of ao religion.

Thing is gue i wouldn't want to live in a dictatorship of the proletariat. Why? Cos it's dumb. It's even contradictory to marx's own thinking imo. Why? he talked of equality and removal of class, if that were to happen there could be no proletariat, so how could there be a dictatorship of it?
I appreciate your knowledge of marx is way beyond mine though and i've probably just cued a lesson in how communism is the ultimate aim and only when that's acheived is the true vision realised. I just see holes in the idea and historically those holes have tended to be filled by less than benevolent dictators. Communism has never really been acheived as a result. Things tend to stall once the new dictators are in place.

All that said, marx certainly had some great ideas and i can see how they could be built upon and into a a way forward that DOES bring about what he wanted.

I reckon griffin got no further than, "mondragon, that's basque country, i've heard about that, nationalist resistance, eta, they must be my kind of folk, well except they're horrid jonny foreigners, but at least they're not here, i will now try and steal a bit of their 'glory'. Hey has anyone seen my speak and spell? I need my speak and spell to keep learning. Give me my speak and spell back you tossers. Wahhh wahhh, stop looking at me, stop it, wahh wahhh"

Guevarista wrote:
A society run by women eh?
Not Maggie Thatcher I hope.

TBH all I see is a society run by psychos because it takes other psychos to challenge them. regardless of gender.

dubmeup wrote:
I saw that unfold so clearly in my head

andyh wrote:
Bang on money! Another examples would be Merkel, Gillard or the lez Hillary... mind you I still demand to see proof that Thatcher is a woman. I’m kidding but not really...

and Justice for All wrote:
She's still not dead yet ffs lol..

I wanna see someone from DIF I know curl one off on her grave

dubmeup wrote: How do you think Marx suggested equality and removal of class oppression?
By taking the weapon of "the state" out of the hands of the Bourgeoisie, which is uses to enforce an economic basis for all human interactions.
There has been zero theoretical discourse as powerful as Marx's IMO for overthrowing the basis of inequality, exploitation etc..

and Justice for All wrote:

Guevarista wrote:
Bakunin?

Bakunin advocated something along the lines of "the secret-or invisible- dictatorship" and federalism, which isn't far from what we currently have imo, I think he even conceded Marx was a superior intellect, but yes they both shared very important considerations for overthrowing the power of the Bourgeois state and liberating the working/exploited classes.

Engels' and Marx' critiques of Bakunin are important reading imo and show the flaws in his theory, imo Marx, Engels etc are an improvement on Bakunins ideas.www.marxist.com/engels-on-bakunin-letter...-january-24-1872.htm

Guevarista wrote:
Which kind of leads us back to mondragon and related concepts.
Andy and i have both waxed lyrical about self employment as you know. Not because we're capitalist to the core but because within this current system it's a very simple way for an individual to grab some of the power over their own affairs back from the state. Co-ops such as mondragon provide the same function. They take much power back for the individuals within. This is not me saying my view is we should all aspire to be se or co-op members. It's just about tangible steps away from this crock of shite system.

I know you've referred to this view as being petit bourgeousie....for my part i'll say i can't see how i qualify for that 'class' so i don't consider it a pb view.

With regard to discourse on this, i do try, i regularly start threads aiming to stimulate discourse on not overthrowing the system, but calmly walking away to a future of our own.
Perhaps, if those threads and similar were approached by contributors in a conducive manner, one day we or some other group may just top marx's contribution....ir you catch my drift

Marxism

Groucho tendency