Blue_Tackler wrote:
Can you answer the question, would you charge or find them guilty on the dogs evidence alone?

Barnfish wrote:
No not without finding the body this can't be done, all I'm saying is in the absence of a body, the evidence won't convict, it's just that they don't appear innocent with the evidence that is available, it's one of those things, they appear guilty but without 1) A witness or 2) a body, it's about impossible to convict.

edit 3) admission.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
Indeed the dogs find blood etc. So what did the dogs actually find?

Blue_Tackler wrote:
People have been convicted of murder without a body being found. It is about the evidence, so if ten people say they saw a person throw another off a cliff into the sea but the body is not traced, there is still ample for a murder conviction.

I am glad you agree other evidence is needed beyond the dogs. So lets look at that now.

I'm getting tired of this going round in circles this is my last post here.

''what did the dogs find''

Evening of 3 August, Portuguese and UK investigators begin at Ocean Club, Apt 5A

- Martin leads in Eddie and tells him to sit at the front door, so that he can remove the leash. Contrary to expectations of this wonder dog-detective, Eddie ignored the command and ran immediately to the interior of the apt, where he ran "devilishly" from the living room to the parent's bedroom. Grimes says worriedly that something has made Eddie nervous and he calls Eddie again so that he can give orders to indicate where to start searching. An investigator is video taping. Some minutes later, Eddie focuses on the floor of the couple's bedroom, next to the wardrobe and gives the alert for cadaver odor, in a strident bark

- Why here, in the couple's room? More goosebumps to follow: Eddie gives another strident bark next to the living room wall, behind the blue sofa, under the window.


- If the cadaver (EVRD) dog alerts, then the blood (CSI) dog is brought in. They are trained to find ONLY human blood, even in areas thoroughly cleaned with chemicals or bleaches. Sometimes they find blood vestiges so small that they can't be collected, and the surrounding materials themselves have to be transported to the lab. This happened with Keela.

- Keela is brought in and she marks blood in the same place as Eddie marked the cadaver smell... she stopped, immobile, with her nose pointed at the precise location of the smell. The tiles on the floor.

- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.

- Going now to the other apts, the investigators are nervous. Who knows what will come next? But to the amazement of all, after very careful exams of all the other apts, Eddie exhibits complete disinterest. Martin decides to not use Keela, since Eddie found no cadaver smell.

- There are signs of death in Apartment 5A. It's necessary to confirm that, prior to 3 May, no one had died there. The OC has no records of anything like that, nor the fire department, nor the paramedics, nor the prior apt owners knew of any death in the apt.

- It is concluded, therefore, that the cadaver odor could only come from one person: Madeleine Beth McCann.
www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

Blood and cavader.

who's blood www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506725/...-come-Madeleine.html

Tests carried out at a UK laboratory confirmed beyond doubt that the blood was that of the toddler, a Portuguese newspaper reported.

IMO it all fell apart when the FFS lab in Birmingham messed up the tests on the evidence gathered from the various locations.

I do believe that the dogs marked accurately - Keela and Eddie confirming the locations the other had found.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
I do not see how the cadaver smell has to be from Madeleine when Dr Kate McCann is a GP and has contact with dead people. How do you rule her out as a source? There is a dispute over the source of the blood, how it came to be there and whose it is. The blood under the tile apparently came from one of the Portuguese forensic scientists.

Your bias keeps showing through and your determination to interpret evidence as being against the McCanns instead of what the evidence actually tells us, the circumstances are not known and are disputed.

IWTT wrote:
They marked fine, but that is being misused by some as what they found points to foul play and disposal of a body. Kate MCanns work as a GP, the lack of a blood pattern, toddlers doing what toddlers do and falling over and nappies all also explain the dogs indications.

The McCanns are well-connected it seems. They have access to heads of state and even the Pope. They may know a few things TPTB would not want to see the light of day.

Much more to Kate & Gerry than just a couple of doctors.

Verlander wrote:
It would appear they want their daughter found, hence the efforts to keep the story in the media. Not the kind of thing you do if you killed and then buried her. The access to heads of state (which one?) and the Pope came after the disappearance, not before and was a result of the publicity. Many people ask for and get the Pope's blessing and time with him for all sorts of reasons.

Baseless speculation rather than an unbiased examination of the facts is fun on the internet for sad people with not enough to do in their own lives.

Barnfish wrote:
How many dead people does the average GP see on a daily basis? Not very many at all in a month I would wager. IF you had been dealing with dead people surely after x many days on holiday of showering, swimming, washing, sweating while jogging, drinking, peeing, wearing freshly laundered clothes any trace of cadaver would surely be well gone?

Verlander wrote:
Agreed.

Barnfish wrote:
Very few have suggested the McCanns actually killed their daughter. However there seems to be SOME evidence - maybe not quite sufficient for a conviction - that:

- the child died in an accident
- one or more of the McCanns' tapas bar chums had an unhealthy interest in children
- the McCanns did not not want the body found and a post-mortem carried out

As Mr Icke would no doubt say: join the dots! There are actually several more dots than listed above but it's enough to be going on with.

Dr Kate McCann is a GP and has contact with dead people. How do you rule her out as a source? <<<<barnfish.

In that case it would be all over the apartments where Dr K, had been, not just in one or two spots found.

If it was from Dr K it would have been found in her bed, on everything that she was near, if she was responsible for spearing the scent. , not just only, in two isolated places.

Therefore it is you that is being bias with your presentation of evidence, as you appear to be implying that Dr K, could have managed to accidently have only contaminated two small locations in the place where the infant disappeared from? (nowhere else)

The rest of/more of the apartment would have been contaminated too, no? and the other locations where Dr K had been, all clear?

Perhaps Cadaver only falls off of GP's in certain places where their daughters are suspected of disappearing from?

Looks like Dr K must have spent most of her time in the wardrobe, and hanging around behind the sofa



So both dogs verify the same spot? eeew it's all from Dr K, I guess she must have accidently pricked her finger and then when she wiped up her blood she accidently dropped some cadaver scent left over from the last dead patient that she attended, then she went and stood in the wardrobe for a while.

And later, someone came in and 'abducted' her daughter and unfortunately for Dr K she accidently left the cadaver scent where some blood was found.

Babs wrote:
I can find a claim Kate McCann had had contact with 6 deceased bodies, but nothing to say if that is confirmed or not. It would be better for purposes of checking evidence to find out exactly what the situation was. The point of the cadaver dog is that it can still detect the sent weeks afterwards even after cleaning. My point here is there is a clear potential source of smell that has not been ruled out.

Verlander wrote:
I agree if Madeleine died in the apartment accident is the most likely cause. I would hate DI or anyone of his ilk to be in charge of an investigation. Him and internet warriors like him who like a good conspiracy and see suspicion when they should only see evidence are untrustworthy.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
The list of places where the dog indicated a sent

whathappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.c...of-cadaver-dogs.html

1.The living room of the McCanns’ apartment (5A) in Praia da Luz, on the floor next to the outside wall, behind the sofa
2.In or near the wardrobe in the McCanns’ apartment bedroom
3.On the veranda of the McCanns’ apartment veranda
4.Amongst the flowerbeds outside the apartment
5.On two of Dr Kate McCann’s clothes
6.On a red T-shirt belonging either to Madeleine or to her younger brother Sean
7.On the pink soft toy often produced by Dr Kate McCann for media photographs, ‘Cuddle Cat’
8.On the floor of the Renault Scenic, the hired car used by the McCanns, near the driver’s seat
9.On the car keys of the Renault Scenic

So how can that be? Kate McCann moving about the apartment and getting in and out the car with whatever it was on her that was transferring the sent? From Madeleine as her dead body was moved from a wardrobe to behind a settee to the veranda to outside in the flower bed to the floor of the car near the drivers seat? From Madeleine or Kate to the toy and clothes?

The answer at the moment is we cannot rule out either cause.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
So how is cadaver sent picked up and transferred? By blood as you seem to suggest? By touch or clothes? Is the transfer evenly spread? I cannot find the answer to that question. Have you got an answer, or is it pure speculation?

How long after death does cadaver sent present itself such a that a dog would detect it? The longest Madeleine could have been dead for is about an hour before the alarm was raised.. This test of cadaver dogs suggests the shortest time a dog can detect death after death is 1 hour and 25 minutes. More testing is need to establish if Madeleine was dead long enough in the apartment to leave a sent for the dogs.

www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html

So again, did the sent come from Kate or Madeleine? Answer, we do not know.

Barnfish wrote:
The problem I have with this saga and what happened is what is quoted above me time. I've read that Kate described it as a family holiday - I'm not a parent but sending your kids off to a childrens club everyday whilst you availed yourself the free activities is not what I'd say was a family orientated holiday. Then leaving them alone again in the evening, when you knew they had been upset the previous evening when you had been having more "me" time not necessarily in the tapas bar - I can't comprehend how someone could do that. I've no doubt having 3 kids under the age of 4 was stressful, but it was their choice and both Kate and Gerry had plenty of "me" time during the day of this so called family holiday to not spend time with their kids in the evening,

People do chill on holiday and leave their brains at home - I worked on holiday camps in the 80's, the number of lost distressed kids I used to walk round the camp looking for mam and dad who were usually to be found getting rat assed in the bar numbered quite a few - we even used to have a "baby crying in chalet ...." sign that lit up above the bar - could never understand why someone would leave a baby alone but people did.

The way this has panned out the Fund, the refusal of a reconstruction in the early days, the dogs - the story that Kate, Gerry and Tapas 7 spin has so many holes that can be contradicted but the thing that stands out for me is the selfishness of K & G who didn't put their kids above their needs, that to me is the tragedy. Not sure we'll ever know the answer to what happened to Madeleine but I think Amaral was on the right track with the conclusions he came to.