mikey mikey wrote:
Frog wrote:
Please try and use real definitions and not the musing which are transpiring in your own mind.
Well before you accuse me of making up what I posted, you should have at least checked out the definition from a third source.
Well wickipedia is hardly a sound source! How about providing a definition from a source which was recognised prior to 1930 which has at least got some credibility, and is accepted as the works of a recognised genealogists and their peers?
The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים ISO 259-3 Yhudim Israeli pronunciation [jehuˈdim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and an ethnoreligious group, originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
Israel is a rather recent manifestation born out of political manipulation under the rather dubious and contentious
Balfour declaration. There were several proposals for locations for the NEW Jewish state one of which was Madagascar. I wonder if the Madagascan people would have objected to their nation being transformed in the a Jewish nation? How exactly does a few generations of an invading force establish its self as a race? Are there other examples of a race being established and recognised internationally under similar circumstances?
In order to qualify for residence in Israel the Basic Requirements are...
Israeli law permits anyone who is Jewish from anywhere in the world to immigrate and receive citizenship. Prospective olim (the Hebrew term for Jewish immigrants) must apply for aliyah status and receive an immigrant visa from the nearest Israeli consulate office.
That would seem to indicate that the Irishman would qualify as an Israeli citizen. Assuming that he takes the plunge and emigrates does he now qualify as a Jewish person because he is now in the correct geolocation or is he still in fact ethnically an Irishman? If not what is it exactly that allows other immigrants of the Jewish faith from other parts of the world to be considered ethnic Jews?
Point three seems to be your assertion which is contradictory to the information presented in this text
Jewish commentators. So it would seem that there is a new layer to contend with, are orthodox Jews and non-orthodox Jews ethnic Jews? If they are which groups opinion is the one generally accepted as being the authority?
In response to your rather strange and totally unnecessary inclusion at point 4 here is a little perspective with respect to matters of genocide conducted by the Israelis. Also your assertion the Nazis would probably would have killed the Irishman is based on what? The fact that he was Irish or the fact that he was Jewish?
This land was Palestine prior to the invasion and establishment if Israel which had traditionally been home to a population which was primarily Palestinian for centuries. After the formation of the New state of Israel that population declined rapidly. Israel continues to with the process of genocide to the current day.
Please provide a valid argument that separates the Israelis from the Nazis in terms of genocide?
Jewish and Non-Jewish Population of Palestine-Israel (
t1)
(1517-2051)
| Year | Grand Total | Jews | Non-Jews | Non-Jewish Percentage |
| 1517 | 300,000 est. | 5,000 | 295,000 | 98.3 |
| 1882 | 300,000 | 24,000 | 276,000 | 92.0 |
| 1918 | 660,000 | 60,000 | 600,000 | 90.9 |
| 1931 | 1,035,821 | 174,610 | 861,211 | 83.1 |
| 1936 | 1,366,692 | 384,078 | 982,614 | 71.9 |
| 1946 | 1,810,037 | 543,000 | 1,267,037 | 70.0 |
| 1948* | 872,700 | 716,700 | 156,000 | 17.9 |
| 1949 | 1,173,900 | 1,013,900 | 160,000 | 13.6 |
| 1950 | 1,370,100 | 1,203,000 | 167,100 | 12.2 |
| 1951 | 1,577,800 | 1,404,400 | 173,400 | 11.0 |
EDIT: Added for clarity -
* Majority Arab [non-Jewish] population displaced by Israel's establishment.
So according to the bold the Irishman would be considered Jewish. Which would seem to be supported by
Jewish commentators.
and
An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background. Ethnoreligious communities define their ethnic identity neither exclusively by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation, but often through a combination of both (a long shared history; a cultural tradition of its own; either a common geographical origin, or descent from a small number of common ancestors; a common language, not necessarily peculiar to the group; a common literature peculiar to the group; a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups; being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community).[
Examples of ethnic groups defined by ancestral religions are the Jews, the Druze of the Levant, the Copts of Egypt, the Yazidi of northern Iraq, the Zoroastrians of Iran and India, and the Serer of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania[1]. The Sikhs in India, with the state of Haryana created in 1966 so Sikhs could be a majority in their own state of Punjab.
As for you 55year old catholic to jewish conversion:
1) Ethnically is he jewish? No.
2) Is he a member of the jewish faith? Yes.
3) Is he considered " a jew" by other jews. Some orthodox no, some less conservative, yes.
4) Would the Nazis have killed him? Probably.[/quote]
mikey mikey wrote:
IIRC the German Gestapo were mutch miffed at the UK policy of defining jews not racially but merely by religious practice. That did not fit with their laws for German Blood and Honour and would have made the process of "removal" more difficult.
Whether or not you see jewishness as religious practice or racially: in the minds of those who would persecute them, THEIR definition is based on geneaology. Hence why they are "racists".
Well here we go again with yet another rather unnecessary reference which appears to be a subtly racist slight aimed at members the German race! This odd paragraph seems to bring into question the answer you gave at point 1 above. The UK policy? Do you suppose that that policy was based on accepted genealogical definitions as prescribed by genealogists? If not why do you think the British government would adopt a policy which contradicted the recognised authorities in that field? Or are you suggesting that we pesky Brits just liked messing with the minds of the Gestapo?
Personally I get where the British Government are coming from particularly given the fact that Israel still only existed on paper in the form of the Balfour declaration at that time. I personally fail to see how an invading force transforms into an internationally recognised ethnic race within a period of around 60 years - when the vast majority of the invaders were from a variety of different countries and continents who simply share the same belief system. I'm not alone in my confusion!
Why choose a specific point in time say 200,300,2000,3000 years?
