Andyh is right to be wary of the conflation of realism and pessimism.

101%

Guevarista wrote:
lol no they would not.
Since when would they want an entire population full of self sufficient people not paying tax?!
You do realise where MP's get their wages from right? Where they get their jobs from when they leave govt yep?

Get a grip....how do you control a society full of people who have no need of govt? Jesus Keerist lol!!

There are govt LOANS available if you want to start a business and you're unemployed but I sure as hell wouldn't want one, would you?
Do they advertise all over TV how you can save thousands in taxes if you're self employed??
No, they do not...WHY THE FUCK NOT!!!???

Again a shill would be at the point of panicking right now.

andyh wrote: well you seem to have lost your composure there slightly, if I may take the salient point there, and the one reactionary closet right wingers often make:Alot of Conservative MP's get their money for schooling, training etc, by having the generational wealth of family run businesses, Ie George Osborne, and/or offshore banking accounts, like David Cameron, or former 6-7figure salaries in the Banking and Corporate sector, like Francism Maude etc.
Do you think the government exerts more negative control over society than independent financial institutions, multinational corporations, investment banking and corporate lobbyists?

You just take an anti government approach now because government is the only obstacle between us and complete financial exploitation, worker's rights that this government are doing away with in "part ownership of the company" schemes, the fact fewer people take an interest in government, contact their politicians, organize and work within their communities contributes enormously to the unbalanced and corporatist form government in the West has taken in the past 25 years, or longer, the fact everyone is working their asses of everyday creates an overclass of political buyins representing the small proportion of the classes who do well.

So why don't you just write to an employment training/work programme company, you could get a drove of impressionable unemployed through your doors giving you more than enough time to give them the basic tools required to start their own business.

The work programmes advertise self employment widely, top Tory politicians advocate reform of the State run NHS model, ie abolishing government influence, have you heard of Circle Trust care providers, they're mondragon light and backed by alot of the influential Tory policy writers:www.circlepartnership.co.uk/about-circle

You should get in ahead of the curve, write to Maximus employment Training consultants or something, you could even specialise/develop a method of iincreasing the productivity of handicapped people go into partnership with ATOS, fuck Sanctum Zone you could be on the bloody TV mate, seriously, if you're that passionate about your opinions on this self employment thing, why not go for it, what do you have to lose?

andyh wrote: You're trying to justify why it's ok for you to "Improve things" for yourself and a close group of allies, that's factionalism, individualism and pessimistic.
You're approach to government and technology appears to be to abolish both?

Guevarista wrote:
Yes you definitely fit the bill for a diversionary shill.
They get their wages from taxation you dumb fuck....

Guevarista wrote:
Its realistic, eg you CAN do it if you want right now.

The only other way I know of is to pick up a gun and go shooting people. Just FYI they have a whole army of protectors of their own if you think going rambo on them is a solution then gl.
If on the other hand you're going to talk about how voting labour and the unions are somehow going to help then you're going to get outed as a shill..AGAIN.

Seriously what have you got to lose from trying?
It's pessimistic to work for your own advancement imo, that's not a popular view in my experience so whatever but being self employed and fucking the tax man is, especially amongst people I know who are mechanics, plumbers, electricians etc, the workforce is atomised and production is faily impervious to industrial action on any meaningful scale, which is ominous, but not set in stone.
The population is atomised and competitive, divided, did you look at the "Circle Hospitals" potential NHS reform model/Mondragon lite, I totally think if you believe that strongly, that we should develop a workable model for this self employment scheme you have, to be rolled out in WP courses, to work in parnership with various employment organisations, charities, government agencies etc.

A large percentage of unemployed WP attendees become self employed so you'd develop have support from the WP and Ministers like IDS in my opinion.

Guevarista wrote:
Trying what? Voting? Or going rambo on them?

andyh wrote: You're very pessimistic aren't you?
I meant creating a viable model for implementing widescale education courses, or a startup foundation for aspiring self employed, I'll tell you as somebody on the other side of the fence there would be a lot of support for such an initiative in areas of large youth unemployment, you could get tradesmen in on it and call it a modern apprenticeship, or mentoring scheme, you basically give young people the tools to become self employed and use your brain to create a network of different tradesmen?

Wouldn't that be fulfilling?

Guevarista wrote:
Again there you go with the 'pessimistic' label

Why would I want some kind of establishment model for training courses?
I train people for free who work for me, I would expect the same of other employers.
What you're talking about there is already done, they call it job training schemes or YTS or all that crap.
Employees for free from the govt to corporations, well done. Thats the TORY thing to do

andyh wrote: Why would you do it, I don't know maybe to help others?
So to clarify you're happy just doing the self employed thing on your own with a close group of friends?
Quite pessimistic imo.
My point was that by everyone withholding their taxes, as you seem to advocate to stop paying MP's wages, you will not end the state or state oppression, but merely the ability for people without rich parents or large private wealth, ie working class people to participate in it.
So you would have attacked the working class resistance built up over hundreds of years to combat the interests of entrenched wealth, power, effluence who dominate British politics already, and by encouraging people to withold taxes would have rendered Schooling and all tax supported initiatives like the NHS to be privatised.
Further widening the gap between the haves and have not's. (or as you call them "idiot masses")

Guevarista wrote:

Yeah as I suspected and said, you're aspirations are pretty common, considerably self centered and thus imo fairly pessimistic.

But there is a market for people who want to stop paying taxes and contributing to society, so if you ever decide to set up your training scheme, let me know here and i'll do some publicity for you round my way.

And a quick FYI it was fashionable to refer to any state as "fascist", about five years ago.

Guevarista wrote: 5th time...

How is self centred action pessimistic if it involves doing something more than nothing at all?
Erk...
Why would I want to make a monetary profit from explaining how to game the system when it would restrict access to that information to a select few??
This is what the elite do right now, not what I do.
Again- PROJECTION.

Fascism is about the merger of corporate and state interests.
Look it up.
As for fashionable I couldn't care less, I don't wear ideals like clothing.

IMO It's patently ridiculous to compare anything modern liberal with a mid 20th century authoritarian traditionalist regime like Fascist Italy, Spain or Germany, modern UK is not Fascist by any stretch of the imagination.

"Why would I want to make a monetary profit from explaining how to game the system when it would restrict access to that information to a select few?"

Why does everything have to be about profit with you?
How many people have you helped to become self employed and stop paying taxes, i expect you would reach alot more with a charitable foundation, magazine or even website to explain your basic premise?It's Hobbesian and we know how it ends, ie there has been no shortage of "self-centred action "over the course of western History since the 17th century.

Guevarista wrote: Yep you've not much of an imagination that much is clear

lol how amusing...here I am on a website explaining how self employment works and all I get is unemployed wasters like yourself whining about it.
Ever been a paid up union member? TBH I doubt you've ever had a job.

FWIW I've employed 12 lads, 6 of which have become self employed.
ZERO have happened as a result of anything I've put out on the internet.
People learn from doing and they have to have an interest in doing first of all, something which most lackeys definitely do not want to do.


Just WTF has all that pile of crap spam text there got to do with the price of beans?
How is that even relevant?

Lets try again shall we?

Pessimism = doing fuck all
Realism = doing what you can

Capiche? Do you need to bring in something about marxism at this point perhaps?

That's great, i think it's great for young men especially these days to have passionate, intelligent, practical male role models, my point was it's pessimistic to think you couldn't do this on a wider scale, you obviously feel you have the know how, so what;s stopping you?
thanks that's quite a compliment.

Guevarista wrote:
6th time now.

Pessimist = does nothing
Realist = does something, even if it is little because thats whats possible.

So lets see, unemployed, doing jack shit to change anything...hmmm...PESSIMIST?!

Beside the absolutely justified and extremely accurate ad-hominem...
Where exactly am I wrong here?:
"That’s great, i think it’s great for young men especially these days to have passionate, intelligent, practical male role models, my point was it’s pessimistic to think you couldn’t do this on a wider scale, you obviously feel you have the know how, so what;s stopping you?"

Guevarista wrote:
7th time now.