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TOPIC: Faith schools yes or no.

Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 18:41 #1

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Catholic schools,Muslim schools etc .Are they there to divide?


www.channel4.com/programmes/faith-school-menace/4od
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 18:45 #2

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In my opinion, separating religion from education entirely is long overdue. Let anyone study whatever religion(s) they want, to whatever depth they please, but not in school time.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 18:48 #3

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I'm totally against faith schools, including, as the OP notably failed to mention, CofE schools. In fact I'm pretty much against the entire state school system. However, look who's presenting this programme:

Professorcock


Who would have thought Dawkins would get involved with this? He usually likes to shy away from this subject.

If I agree with Professor Cock, I must be wrong. I'm quite confused now.
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Last Edit: 06 Aug 2012 18:49 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 18:55 #4

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Dawkins says some good stuff that I agree with, he also says stuff I disagree with. It's another case of one extreme to the other. Dawkins is just another kind of extremeist/fundamentalist IMO.

I'm all for balance. I'm all for we don't know it all, we don't have all the answers.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 18:57 #5

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Unusually for me, I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and say that I have no problem with the concept of "faith schools" (I actually have a bigger problem with dear old Prof Dawkins but that's by the by!). If parents wish their kids to be educated with the background of the family faith, then that's their prerogative - just IMHO! Please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me! :hide:

Mandy
All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well. - Mother Julian of Norwich
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:05 #6

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quietgirl wrote:
Unusually for me, I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and say that I have no problem with the concept of "faith schools" (I actually have a bigger problem with dear old Prof Dawkins but that's by the by!). If parents wish their kids to be educated with the background of the family faith, then that's their prerogative - just IMHO! Please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me! :hide:

Mandy
It is difficult because it's hard to know where to draw the line between a family having the right to bring up their children how they choose, and when they're indoctrinating the children into their beliefs.

Ultimately, I think this raises a good point. It is up to the parents to choose, and no-one else's opinion really matters. I am completely against faith schools, so I should not send any children I have to them, and leave others to make their own decisions too.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:05 #7

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Faith schools...

I think the mainstream religions are systems of mind control. So I don't think there should be faith schools.

Religion really is just an opinion, something people believe in. Take a child born to Christian or Muslim or Jewish parents, put him on a desert island, will he grow up to be a Christian or a Muslim or Jewish?

If the word of "God" is the universal truth, then why do we need men to speak it to us from an early age? Why isn't it something we just know?

I'm not an aethiest...I just think religion has many many logical flaws and contradictions...from what I know of it. I've never read a religious text. I tried readign the bible a while back and got as far as the bit where God makes Eve out of one of Adam's ribs and some soil...that was a huge suspension of disbelief that I just couldn't manage :D Tbh I wasn't buying the "let there be light" bit either :chuckle:

Each to his or her own though :)
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:06 #8

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No to faith schools from me.

By all means teach about the various mythologies, they played no small part in shaping the world we know today.
I am of the opinion that religion is something that should be left until a child has reached maturity before it is available to them.
That way, they make the choice to investigate or participate without indoctrination clouding their objectivity.

See also pledging allegiance to flags etc
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:13 #9

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quietgirl wrote:
Unusually for me, I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and say that I have no problem with the concept of "faith schools" (I actually have a bigger problem with dear old Prof Dawkins but that's by the by!). If parents wish their kids to be educated with the background of the family faith, then that's their prerogative - just IMHO! Please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me! :hide:
Mandy
I can't see anyone here even thinking about doing that Mandy and if they did I'd be standing right behind you. ;) :D



:hug: :rose:
Last Edit: 06 Aug 2012 20:31 by feather.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:17 #10

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quietgirl wrote:
Unusually for me, I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and say that I have no problem with the concept of "faith schools" (I actually have a bigger problem with dear old Prof Dawkins but that's by the by!). If parents wish their kids to be educated with the background of the family faith, then that's their prerogative - just IMHO! Please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me! :hide:

Mandy

I think that's reasonable.

I don't mind faith schools conceptually, depending on how they're run. In a way I went to a faith school because although it was a standard state comprehensive we sang hymns and said prayers in assembly and there was a general Christian theme in the background. Like we were all give Gideon New Testaments when we were about 13. Most of them ended up with their pages blowing around the playground and having penises drawn in them and stuff though. Christianity was there, but not rammed down our throats and I still grew up to be an atheist.
A general backdrop that facilitates a particular religion - prayer facilities, dietary requirements and wotnot I don't mind as long as it still gives a rounded education that doesn't tip into brainwashing people into a particular religion.

I also think that we should recognise kids aren't dumb and just because they go to a faith school, that doesn't mean they're blindly sucking up every word about whatever religion.
Last Edit: 06 Aug 2012 19:20 by dogsmilk.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:25 #11

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If we are to have State funded faith schools then it is only fair that everyone has the same opportunity.

Perhaps I would like to have my children educated in a Jedi environment. It isn't going to happen that the State and the taxpayers will fund a local Jedi school for my kids is it. Similarly with other fringe religions.

So the notion of State funded faith schools is discriminatory and therefore has to be wrong.

If someone wishes to have their children educated within a religious environment they have the option of home schooling or going private.

I agree with WUB that C of E schools are by far the worst example we have. Out here in the country they have you by the short and curlies. If your children are to go to a state school you can bet your life it will be C of E. I have strong objections to that. Very strong.

To clarify, I am pro separating State education and religion.
Last Edit: 06 Aug 2012 19:29 by dubs.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:26 #12

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
quietgirl wrote:
Ultimately, I think this raises a good point. It is up to the parents to choose, and no-one else's opinion really matters. I am completely against faith schools, so I should not send any children I have to them, and leave others to make their own decisions too.

Like many such issues surrounding parenthood vs collective care of duty to minors, balance and personal reponsibility seem key to me.
In fact having secular schools is quite different from having what Dawkins set up:
University lecturers and students reacted with dismay on Sunday after a group of leading British academics took a step towards the establishment of an elite US-style university system in the UK by launching a new private college offering £18,000-a-year courses.
Will atheism be enforced? Hmmm. :coffee:
www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/05...ns-grayling-ferguson

How is that any different from a university with ties to the Anglican Church or a Catholic institution or A Muslim one?

Personally I respect anybody's right to have their children free from religious influence. OTOH I would not have the state eradicate schools because over and above the power of religion to brainwash kids, I fear the power of the State to control education standards to the point where religion MUST be actively opposed in education.

Then again, the type of home schooling and Xtian fundie tyranny in schools in the Midwest USA is equally repugnant.

But Dawkins is clearly aiming at a neo-conservative American economic model of education backed up with an emphasis on sciences and a heavy dose of anti-theism in his grand vision of a future without De Profundis by Oscar Wilde, without the Requiem Mass of mozart or the works of CS Lewis or Pico Di Mirandola or Dante or Blake or the paintings of Michaelangelo or even a Christmas party in elementary school.

Oh and then the other religions of Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism and Islam would have to relinquish any mention of the religion inherent in their respective cultures too.

To think that Oscar Wilde could re-enter schoolrooms through more tolerant policies concerning the teaching of homosexuality only to be censored once more due to his religious writings of late life.

Bang goes Philip K Dick too.,
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:29 #13

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No
"I am a Real American, fight for the rights of everyman" (Hulk Hogan theme song)
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:32 #14

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I went to Catholic school from Kindergarten to Grade 6. We had Catechism, etc, and this was at lunch time, once a week in Grade 4 and 6 to prepare us for First Communion. My family was definitely NOT practicing Catholics -- we didn't go to church except for the occasional Christmas Eve, and weddings of course, and I was somehwat ostracized for this. :chuckle: I had a Nun for a principal, and Nuns for teachers up until Grade 3. Like "You might know this if your mother brought you to Church more often!!" and the whole clique-y thing that ensued. There were kids who weren't Catholic there, and I remember some kids saying "Gee I wish I was Catholic...." so they could feel a part of the wonder of it all. :roll:

I don't mind faith based schools being around, but I do think it's foolish and outdated. All the Christian and Catholic schools around here have the big fenced in schoolyards and playgrounds, there is one that I've come to call "The Christian Fortress", it's just a big, prison looking situation with a huge cross out front. The Jewish school is very low key, and funny enough, it's in a converted church.

Outside of my opinion that they are foolish and outdated, I really don't mind that they exist. As long as they aren't training people to kill non-believers I'm good.

EDIT: I would never send my kids to one though. ;)
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Last Edit: 06 Aug 2012 19:34 by ronisron.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:34 #15

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My personal pov is that religion is more suited as an after school activity but I have no huge problem with faith schools so long as they are funded by the religion they are indoctrinating rather then the state.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:37 #16

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nirvana wrote:
Catholic schools,Muslim schools etc .Are they there to divide?


www.channel4.com/programmes/faith-school-menace/4od

I grew up in a predominately Catholic neighborhood,so the main difference in schools, were either you went to a Catholic school or you went to a public school,they didn't seem to divide us fellow kids,but the parents were very ethnically minded, as for the breakup of the neighborhood and who was what, and this may have rubbed off on their children as they aged.


But today different religious schools for a particular group in my opinion would cause more division and problems,and maybe for general education not a very good idea,and just have a separate type thing they can go to when they observe their individual faith in the educating of them in their belief.
A newborn puppy has no fear of a tiger.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:53 #17

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mikey mikey wrote:
In fact having secular schools is quite different from having what Dawkins set up:
University lecturers and students reacted with dismay on Sunday after a group of leading British academics took a step towards the establishment of an elite US-style university system in the UK by launching a new private college offering £18,000-a-year courses.
Will atheism be enforced? Hmmm. :coffee:
www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/05...ns-grayling-ferguson

How is that any different from a university with ties to the Anglican Church or a Catholic institution or A Muslim one?
This is a very interesting point, I'd not heard of this. You see, straight away, Dawkins has invited Pinker because he's an Evolutionary Psychologist. Never mind the fact that Evolutionary Psychology runs into all kinds of problems with explaining various facets of human behaviour. Never mind the fact that many, if not most, eminent Psychologists disagree with Pinker. That doesn't matter, he's on the side of evolution, he must be the best! There is a very interesting blog on Pinker here, which I largely agree with:

maythecircleremainunbroken.blogspot.co.u...nd-noam-chomsky.html

You can see more criticism of Pinker's selectivity and lack of objectivity on his Wikipedia page. I personally think Pinker's views on language development, without summarising them, are highly unlikely to be correct, and if it were not unethical to do so, you could actually test them and disprove them quite easily.

Also, a good point about Philip K. Dick, in my mind the greatest writer that ever lived.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 19:59 #18

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mikey mikey wrote:
But Dawkins is clearly aiming at a neo-conservative American economic model of education backed up with an emphasis on sciences and a heavy dose of anti-theism in his grand vision of a future without De Profundis by Oscar Wilde, without the Requiem Mass of mozart or the works of CS Lewis or Pico Di Mirandola or Dante or Blake or the paintings of Michaelangelo or even a Christmas party in elementary school.

I think pushing anti-theism is basically taking a dogmatic approach no different to theism. Dawkins' problem is atheism is his religion.

As an atheist myself who may criticise and take the piss out of religion from time to time, I don't feel the need to be a fundamentalist about it. I can imagine in a few years time he'll have people going round knocking on doors -

Have you ever wondered why there is so much evil and suffering in the world?

Uh maybe...yeah I guess

Well we're here to spread the good news that it has jack to do with any non existent deity. Can I interest you in a copy of the selfish gene? It's the true revealed word of our lord and saviour
Last Edit: 06 Aug 2012 20:00 by dogsmilk.
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 20:04 #19

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Dawkins isn't even an atheist. When debating with the Arch Bishop of Canterbury he stated that he wasn't 100% sure about things so had to declare himself an agnostic. He can't even be consistent :facepalm:
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Re: Faith schools yes or no. 06 Aug 2012 20:17 #20

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Who cares? How is this even an issue unless you're the poor, little, sod being packed off to one of them?

I really couldn't give a crap...you may be able to tell. However, I suspect that there will always be 'faith schools', just as there ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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