Everything only has value that 'we' give it. Currency has no value in itself - the value if from swapping it for goods that have a 'value'. I hear people saying it needs to be backed by something such as gold - but again gold is only 'valuable' if people believe it has 'value' and there is enough demand to retain that 'value'. It could just as easily be backed by herrings.
Then both the paper and the gold don't really have value.
They never did in the first place.
Perhaps us stupid humans simply need to realise what actually does have value?
I guess 'value' is subjective - but there are things in common we all need to survive and for me - currency and the of evolution thereof needs to begin with ensuring everyone has a fair share of and equal access to them - at this point in human existence profiteering from the provision of the basics is just wrong.
Sometimes, if you stand on the bottom rail of a bridge and lean over to watch the river slipping slowly away beneath you, you will suddenly know everything there is to be known.
“Just living is not enough, one must have sunshine, freedom, and a little flower”
y does there have to b an exchange of anything? y cant we just try to make ppl b good out of the bottom of their hearts...
exmple: that person needs a blanket, i have two, "here ya go"
example: that person is hungry, i have more than enough food, "come have a warm meal n heres something to take with you unless u wanna bunk in the back room"
example: that person needs help with their garden, im gonna go help them till the soil n care for it - months down the road garden owner shares wat comes from the garden
is it really unplausible n unthinkable to just b a good person
am all for that
i'm not going to argue against binning currency, its just that going by previous threads, i can't see us all agreeing on that.
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Re: putting the world to right.
04 Oct 2012 04:15 #23
The meanings that are the most directly practical are the ones that are sacrificed: the flavor, aroma and touch are abolished to the profit of the delusions that permanently lead sight and hearing astray.
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Re: putting the world to right.
04 Oct 2012 08:37 #24
Everything only has value that 'we' give it. Currency has no value in itself - the value if from swapping it for goods that have a 'value'. I hear people saying it needs to be backed by something such as gold - but again gold is only 'valuable' if people believe it has 'value' and there is enough demand to retain that 'value'. It could just as easily be backed by herrings.
Then both the paper and the gold don't really have value.
They never did in the first place.
Perhaps us stupid humans simply need to realise what actually does have value?
I guess 'value' is subjective - but there are things in common we all need to survive and for me - currency and the of evolution thereof needs to begin with ensuring everyone has a fair share of and equal access to them - at this point in human existence profiteering from the provision of the basics is just wrong.
I guess I just question what motivates us.
Doesn't money keep our targets low?
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: putting the world to right.
04 Oct 2012 15:55 #25
what would be your suggestions or alterations to the idea of returning money to just being a means of exchange, with government issuing and managing it's balance?
I would support any move to obliterate usury. Charging interest is possibly the most efficient means ever developed of taking property from the poor (who need to borrow money, and thus are charged interest when they do so) and giving it to the rich (who have the money and so will not be charged interest because they dont need to borrow it, but who instead will receive interest payments from those who have no money and need to borrow). It is about as unjust as taking food from the hungry to feed the obese.
thanks wub, stock markets then, i agree it's utterly ludicrous. do we take that as something to add to the start point?
I think it's essential. Let me give you a very simple example.
I work as a freelance writer, and I actually get paid in US dollars. It ultimately gets paid into my account in sterling, but the initial transactions are in dollars. So this means that the exchange rate affects how much I get paid. So a few weeks ago when Bernanke announced QE3, the dollar fell against the pound, the exchange rate became 1.65 dollars per pound. Since then because everything is being done in the markets to buttress the dollar, the dollar rose against the pound and the exchange rate at one point today became something like 1.6085 dollars per pound.
This affects the value of labour, for starters. So in just a couple of weeks the value of my labour increased over 2% just based on trading in a market that I have no control over. Luckily I pay some attention to it, and have a reasonable ability to be able to read what's going to happen. But let's say it went the other way, let's say the value of any given currency decreases 2%...the value of your labour has decreased 2%, but can you go your employer and ask for 2% more money? No, you can't because they don't have any more money than they did before, they won't, in all probability, have any understanding of this, and they have no legal obligation to give you it.
Most people don't pay much attention to this but the value of currency fluctuates regularly and quite markedly. Here is a graph of the dollar plotted against the pound:
Furthermore, every basic human need and commodity (with the exception of water, but this is coming too) is also traded, and what you will see is that the price of all these commodities consequently goes up. Here are a few examples:
They're actually talking about food prices today in The Guardian:
Sugar prices are almost twice their 2002-2004 level, while the overall food price level is at its highest since March
The mainstream economic press tends to attribute these things to macroeconomic indicators, but it is primarily driven by trading.
Meanwhile because of this vicious trading and debt-ridden environment, the value of currency plummets. I won't put any more graphs up, but you can see the historical purchasing power of sterling here and the dollar here.
The only thing that isn't presently traded on the stock exchange that is vital for human survival is water. But that's coming:
We know this is the case because they've already been involved in controlling the water supply and profiting from it in the so-called 'developing world'. There was a section on this in the film "The Corporation":
What "The Corporation" didn't mention was that Bechtel built the planets that Saddam Hussein used to construct the chemical weapons that were involved in the gassing of the Kurdish people. The US government continued to support Hussein even when they knew he was gassing the Kurds, but eventually withdrew support. Bechtel continued to attempt to do business in Iraq even after this took place, and despite this were still awarded reconstruction contracts in 2003:
Anyway, to come back to the original point, you can create the best, fairest, most wonderful currency and financial system in the world, but, in my view, it needs to be as independent as possible from this trading environment, otherwise all the big boys can just gang up on you and crush it. And the press will dutifully report that this crash has occurred due to macroeconomic indicators, much as you're seeing with the Euro at the moment. Which is bollocks. They're moving trillions through these markets every day, and nearly 75% of this trading is being done by super-computers:
For example, high-frequency trading firms, which represent approximately 2% of the 20,000 or so trading firms operating in the U.S. markets today, account for 73% of all U.S. equity trading volume.
And this activity completely dwarf the 'real economy' of people making, buying and selling stuff in terms of power and importance. They have become the GDP and growth creating engine of the 'economy' even though they're engaging in illegal activity most of the time, and have created nothing useful, or even tangible, whatsoever.
Rolling back or eradicating the power of this system is obviously very difficult to achieve because you're dealing with some very powerful forces, who want to extend it, not stop it. But I believe it is at least as important, possibly more important, than creating sound money, because any monetary system will only be exposed to the vagaries of it otherwise.
There is a video here that I put up on Youtube that gives an excellent explanation of these issues. It was this video that first made me start to research and try to understand this stuff:
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Excellent post as ever WUB. Personally I can't wait for the over commodification (is that a word? It should be) of water as I sincerely hope not having access to water will surely be the 'tipping point' for the majority of people. If it weren't we may as well concede now and buy our own shackles.
So how would we fit addressing stock markets into the "starting point"?
Do we approach it in a one size fits all way or do we separate such things as commodities and futures from company trading and approach them individually?
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Re: putting the world to right.
06 Dec 2012 22:24 #31
So how would we fit addressing stock markets into the "starting point"?
Do we approach it in a one size fits all way or do we separate such things as commodities and futures from company trading and approach them individually?
Good luck with these answers...
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Re: putting the world to right.
07 Dec 2012 14:25 #32
So how would we fit addressing stock markets into the "starting point"?
Do we approach it in a one size fits all way or do we separate such things as commodities and futures from company trading and approach them individually?
I would say the latter myself dubs.
Futures shouldn't even exist, we need to be doing tangible 'real' trading for starters. Delivery should be immediate.
This would remove the speculation and gambling 'game' aspect that plays such a big part of the corruption going on.
Simplification overall.
I have no objection to companies/corporations, what I object to is treating them like human beings, in fact, something elevated beyond a human being in todays world as only corporations are doing the lobbying and only they are avoiding taxation and as you know partaking in being taxmen for govt robbing the people, eg VAT.
The setup is deliberately complicated, the complication is there by design to prevent people from understanding whats going on.
You can't have transparency of govt etc if joe average hasn't a bloody clue how to understand it.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
So how would we fit addressing stock markets into the "starting point"?
Do we approach it in a one size fits all way or do we separate such things as commodities and futures from company trading and approach them individually?
I would say the latter myself dubs.
Futures shouldn't even exist, we need to be doing tangible 'real' trading for starters. Delivery should be immediate.
This would remove the speculation and gambling 'game' aspect that plays such a big part of the corruption going on.
Simplification overall.
I have no objection to companies/corporations, what I object to is treating them like human beings, in fact, something elevated beyond a human being in todays world as only corporations are doing the lobbying and only they are avoiding taxation and as you know partaking in being taxmen for govt robbing the people, eg VAT.
The setup is deliberately complicated, the complication is there by design to prevent people from understanding whats going on.
You can't have transparency of govt etc if joe average hasn't a bloody clue how to understand it.
Top post. I despise futures trading.
Si me puede disparar los conejos, a continuación, puedo disparar fascistas
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Re: putting the world to right.
07 Dec 2012 16:33 #34
I agree. Remove the futures market, derivatives and all financial devices that enable the casino mentality to dominate currency. leave in place the trading of stocks and shares, at least in the short/mid term. there's nothing too bad with a company generating investment revenue by selling stock.
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Re: putting the world to right.
07 Dec 2012 16:38 #35
People don't realise just how deeply the ideology of money is embedded in their brains. What the fuck do you need to swap chickens for turnips for? Why do you need to swap? If the man needs a chicken, give the man a chicken. Why do you need some chicken/turnip exchange ratio?
Unless, that is, you've been indoctrinated to think you constantly have to measure everything.
People don't realise just how deeply the ideology of money is embedded in their brains. What the fuck do you need to swap chickens for turnips for? Why do you need to swap? If the man needs a chicken, give the man a chicken. Why do you need some chicken/turnip exchange ratio?
Unless, that is, you've been indoctrinated to think you constantly have to measure everything.
Thinking awake human being warning..WOOP WOOP!
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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