this is going to be a difficult post to write as I know how strong feelings justifiably are about the subject but here goes....

in my teens I was in a psychiatric 'community' I would say that at least half of the residents there had been the victims of childhood abuse. halfway through my stay we were asked to vote on whether or not to allow a new person to join the community. every new resident had to be voted in but this was done usually by a group of 5 elected residents - this time however it was a whole community vote. The reason for this was because the person in question was a convicted paedophile.

We discussed it as a community and decided to give the guy a chance - he was seeking help and despite his horrific crimes and the experiences of current residents it was felt that we could not turn him away.

Through various group sessions we learnt not only of his crimes but of his past and what led him down the path he had chosen. What he suffered as a child was as horrific as that which he had subsequently inflicted on other children. None of his suffering or the abuse he was the victim of will ever excuse the abuse he committed - but listening to his story really opened my eyes to how people can end up going so very wrong.

Getting to know the person rather then just the crime ment that I actually grew to like the guy - I thought he should be in prison and never be allowed access to children but I felt compassion and empathy - something I never thought I would say about someone who had abused children.

In the end he chose to commit suicide rather then risk offending again - such was his self loathing and inability to get over the wounds from his past his loneliness and sense that he would never ever be able to escape what he had done.

It may have been for the best - but I cannot help but wonder what life for him would have been like were there the opportunity for him as a child to have been shown a different kind of life.

What he did was evil - but I do not think he as the man was evil.

irrepressible wrote:
Don't forget it was Frodo's empathy, and resulting mercy, for Gollum that saved the ring from penetrating deeper into his soul with its malignancy.

(Not firing on all cylinders either).

Gilly wrote:
One cylinder seems more than enough!

You are bang on!



WIthout the pity shown for Gollum by Bilbo and Frodo all would have been lost.

thoreau wrote:
Indeed.
We are in fact the sum of our life experiences, its what makes us what we are.
If you are born somewhere else then you get brought up in that culture/mindset.

Our rulers know all this ofc which is why they have created the very belief systems we have today. Abandoning them is something we are not capable of for the most part, even if we do detest it.
Overcoming it will truly be a test of evolution not revolution imho.

It is possible for example to have empathy for psychos, if only because they have never truly experienced such feelings for others which I consider to be part of the human experience so to speak. They consider it a weakness ofc and consider themselves to be the ideal human type.
They ofc fail to see that if the world was full of psychos that they wouldn't last very long..

On similar lines to thor's post, i used to know someone who is now doing life for raping and murdering a 4 year old girl.
When i met hime he already had convictions for flashing. He was obviously a very troubled chap and due to his penchant for exposing himself, the entire town shunned him. He heard me playing guitar one day and expressed an interest in learning how to play. So i gave him an old classical and taught him over a few months. He never got very good but enjoyed it and we 'connected'. People in the town thought i was mad for being alone with him.....from my perspective, i was witnessing him coming out of his shell and occasionally genuinely smiling.
Anyway, i've always been rather itinerant and moved on eventually. Later i found out that he had ended up going back into himself, no doubt because the townies persisted in isolating him.
So one day he lost the plot and commited a total atrocity.
To this day i maintain that the complete lack of empathy shown by the townsfolk to this very troubled individual was as much to blame for the hideous acts he did as he was.

I therefore say that it is important that we are not selective about who or what we allow ourselves to empathose with. For sure 'vampires' etc may try to latch on to you but that is where wisdom comes in.
When we think we can turn empathy on and off according to who or what we are encountering, we are in fact just revealing an underdeveloped ability to empathise.

And as has been said, that doesnt mean you are condoning wrong doing. It means you are on the path toward perhaps helping there to be less wrong doing in the world.

dubmeup wrote:
I'm talking about a direct and extremely life threatening encounter. Where either my life is in danger or the life of a loved one etc. The perpetrator is going down, he is being taken out by any means necessary. In a situation like that, empathy could get you and/or your family killed.

@ irri - personally I think that in the scenario you describe the empathy comes after the danger is passed - it is hard to empathise with someone as they are robbing you for example but part of the healing process for some is in understanding the hows and whys after the fact.

I hear you irre. In the situation you outline, the fekker is getting sparked out or i am. Although perhaps with enuff empathy one could perfect the jedi mind trick
My comment was more aimed at the general discussion of empathisimg with wrong doers

thoreau wrote:
The how's and why's of the situation the robber was in, a drug habit? A broken home? My heart bleeds seriously though, it also depends how they rob you, I'm not sure how much empathy I would have after the fact, if I, or a loved one was smashed in the face with a knuckle duster prior to them rifling through our pockets.

I know what you mean though.

I'd probably empathise more with myself for what I would have to do in a situation I didn't want to be involved in, for what the perpetrator forced upon me by his actions.

Thanks for sharing your story thoreau, what that man did was appalling, but also, I feel very sad for the little boy him. It's such a shame when people go through that, because they never had a chance to be shown another way. Once they commit an act like that it can never be undone. Not for the victim, but not for them either.

dubmeup wrote:
This reminds me of something that I heard about a village (either in Africa or Asia ). In this small village, whenever someone commits a crime or atrocity, that "criminal" is placed in the middle of the village square and everyone forms a circle around him. Then, one by one, everyone tells the criminal something that they like about him, even if it is something small. It is said to be effective in this village.

A few people have said we're the sum of our experiences. I think there's more to it than that. There's a spark of some thing inside people that makes them unique, and people will respond differently to similar experiences. There's always an element of choice. Otherwise, how come not everyone who's been abused as a child goes on to perpetuate a further cycle of abuse?

In the example (with vid) that Gue gave, to counter the concept of 'evil' - what about the parent who inflicted monstrosities on the children? Did he do that because he was abused? I only watched the 1st 8 minutes of the video, but at the outset, it was stated that the kids had been so abused, as to be incapable of learning to bond. From the little known of the father from that 8 minutes of film, it seems he was able to bond, otherwise how come he married and fathered the 2 children?

If he was abused himself, what about his parents? Where does it start? What makes the first person to start such a string of abuse do it?

A lot (if not most) of these abusers, people who commit atrocities, etc. do it because they like it. We can look for the reasons and whys, and try to get to the bottom of their behaviour, but if the reason is that they like it, and get off on it, what then?
I'm of the opinion that people instinctively know right from wrong, even if sometimes the lines get blurred.

I agree with you Irre.

There are bound to be exceptions, and people so damaged by the the way they've been treated at an early age that their minds haven't developed 'properly', but I doubt that's sufficient to explain away all the bad people's actions.

I don't believe it's always right to think that someone's done something wicked because they had it done to them (I know that can happen) because surely many people who've fallen victim to things should be able to empathise even more than most with others' suffering the same fate?

Gilly wrote:
That's the bit that doesn't really add up for me. It seems like a handy excuse, to try to wriggle out of, and justify, what they do.
I agree with you that that's how it might be in some cases, I would think they would be relatively few though.

irrepressible wrote:
Define Like or get off on, I think satiating implanted urges, for instance externalizing internal rage or anger could translate as liking or getting off on violence, when it's more a cathartic release that in many cases might even be accompanied afterwards by intense feelings of self loathing, guilt and self hatred on go's the cycle...

We can agree the way these individuals behave is not good for them or anyone else, I think calling them evil, throwing them in the same category as the Devil etc is a negative approach, doesn't really show them why what they do is wrong, it's more like "you're evil so I being good can do what I like to you", it dehumanizes the individual, even though morality is relative. edit: for instance what about the Soldiers who were sent to Vietnam to murder and kill people but who went batshit crazy and burned whole villages, raped women and children etc, when they came home the same people who sent them there to kill, US Gov sent them to prison for doing what they themselves told them to do, they were scapegoats for the collective "evil" of the Military..In a way i have that view towards society, it's "bad eggs" "wrong uns" etc are scapegoats for the collective negative, violent, exploitative behaviour of society itself, something society really refuses to admit exists.

I really, really enjoyed Dubs and Thoreau's personal stories there, they were similar to the video I posted on pg1, the difference the girl in the video was reached at a young enough age to avoid the stigma and repulsion she may have been exposed to as an adult on her own, as such she never re-offended, despite being completely homicidal and abusive to her younger brother, animals, herself and is now an author of self help books on turning around rage and stopping the cycle of violence.

noseymutegirl wrote: That is such a grown up way of doing things, It's actually pretty humbling to think, amongst people who "have so little" to our technologically morphed vision, there is so much warmth and generosity with what little they do have

I understand what you're saying guev, and in some cases, there may be underlying anger, rage, etc. But what I mean by like and get off on, is...say like at a rock concert or something, you'll get into the vibe, you'll enjoy the music, feel great, riding the wave of the vibes with others, that kind of thing...I think some people get the same type of feelings, but with violence and causing the suffering of others, if you know what I mean...it gives them pleasure because it just does, and they know it's wrong. There is no underlying rage, or anger, or troubled upbringing. Is everyone inherently "good", but get turned evil through circumstance and experience? I think "good" and "evil" exist.

I'm really not firing on all cylinders When I get my laptop and get used to being able to type as much as I want instead of 256 characters, I'll flow better

irrepressible wrote:
I think what you're trying to say is...
Someone could be brought up in a great home, no violence, bad language, abuse of any kind. Lead a sheltered life basically. And STILL get out in the world and enjoy/take pleasure out of hurting others (physically, mentally, emotionally). They have no history or life experience that made them do that, it's just something they found that they enjoy doing to other people.

Exactly Stars! thanks
And that is what I personally would define as "evil".