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TOPIC: Point of Conspiracy Theory?

Point of Conspiracy Theory? 03 Mar 2013 23:30 #21

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Great post :cool:
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 03 Mar 2013 23:32 #22

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Great post DM, I wish I could type that fast
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 03 Mar 2013 23:33 #23

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that was my sunday night rant and isn't intended to be a confrontational attempt to start an argument.
Good Dogsmilk because there is very little I can find in it to argue with :)

can't believe that Icke quote RE Marx and Hegel :D
He demonstrates a complete oversight of a very interesting and important, philosophical disagreement that warrants another thread in the near future I think.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 03 Mar 2013 23:39 #24

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dogsmilk wrote:

What they are frightened of is ordinary people getting together and starting to do stuff. For people to do that, they need some kind of underpinning ideology. They need to know what they're aiming for, even if only in a broad sense.

Agreed. I also think the 'underpinning ideology' you speak of can and is being born purely out of people being completely pissed off. What we need is more of it.


...but that was my sunday night rant and isn't intended to be a confrontational attempt to start an argument.


:butkik:
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Last Edit: 03 Mar 2013 23:40 by psketti.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 02:03 #25

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Hi all, I'm sorry I haven't posted for ages, I've been very busy. I probably won't post again for ages after this, but please don't take it personally.

I think it is totally impossible for our generation to make any concerted rebellion against TPTB because we're too far down the line. This would have needed to have happened decades ago. Probably the best time was in the late 60s when there was a fair bit of radicalism on student campuses and an organised 'left' (I'm not 100% convinced that the people involved in this really had all the answers, but they were doing pretty well for the time, and had at least recognised that the establishment was corrupt). Unfortunately, all of those groups were systematically infiltrated and destroyed. There's no room for radicalism on campuses now because everyone's fucking skint.

Virtually all of the important infrastructure is owned now. Pretty much all of the important resources have been stitched up. Every single country on the earth is so vulnerable to the whim of the markets and the corporate fascist banking system that no-one can assert any form of independence from it. And that's leaving aside the fact that virtually every nation has reached the point of debt saturation (that's excluding those that have already been turned into neo-feudal vassal states). And as if that's not enough, they've also long since turned the law against the people. Think you can fight them? Try taking them on in court, and see how you get on. There's a massive legal fiction on their side that has been built up over centuries, which doesn't seem that fictional when you come up against it. We just had the LIBOR rigging scandal – conservatively hundreds of billions of dollars of systematic fraud. A genuine conspiracy involving systematic collusion by the Bank of England and numerous massive banks. No-one even faced criminal charges.

The only thing that could make a difference would be the will of the people. A huge populist rebellion; a revolution, if you will. But this is impossible because people don't have anything to rebel against. They just want a bigger slice of the cake. If you hear people complaining about government, about social issues, it will be at least 90% of the time talking about economic issues (occasionally you might hear them talking about services, but even that is economically-related).

And there is an important thing to note here. Most people don't even know what money is, so they are lambs to the slaughter when talking about these economic issues. The Tories just famously produced a party political broadcast where they lied about Britain's national debt. You can read about this here:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/fraser-nelson/2013...tains-national-debt/

They can easily get away with it because virtually no-one knows anything about it. And, of course, this is a very basic issue, it's not the systematic creation of a interdependent, worldwide banking network that controls the planet and is all fed into the Bank for International Settlements. It's just the difference between 'deficit' and 'debt'. If you can't understand the latter, what chance have you got of understanding the former?

In that sense it is impossible for there to be any significant rebellion against the social order because people don't even know that the social order exists. 99% of people don't realise that there's anything to organise against. They don't realise that they live in a fascist economic state now. Either socio-economic problems are completely misdiagnosed, or people are given completely false explanations for socio-economic phenomena, or else taught to scapegoat a certain group, or, even better, scapegoat a certain group while also engaging in one-upmanship against them. And that's just the people that are paying any form of attention. Bread and circuses are enough to see off most people.

The greatest triumph of this socio-economic system is not only having people be dependent on it – that would be a pretty big achievement in itself – but in actually making people associate their own standard of living, identity and self-esteem with products produced by it, to the degree where any other form of social order is unimaginable. How can there be any form of rebellion when people just want a better iPad, and when they get one, they're temporarily happily, until the gloss has worn off, and then they 'decide' that they want something else? Never mind the conditions that the iPad was produced in. Of course, they haven't made the decision, their desires made the decision.

"We must shift America from a needs- to a desires-culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed. [...] Man's desires must overshadow his needs" - Paul Mazur.

There's nothing to rebel against because at that point you can sit there whining about your personal economic circumstances, but your desires simply feed into the forces that are creating those very circumstances. Complaining about them makes about as much sense as shooting your own dog, and then shooting it again to try to bring it back to life.

And even those of us that do have some idea of what's going on become nearly as bad because it reaches the point where you can't survive without these things. If you have a telephone line installed, you've got a choice between Sky (Murdoch – need I go on?), Virgin Media (Branson – involved in privatisation of the NHS) and BT (absolutely appalling monopolistic corporation), or no phone line. No phone line, no Internet. And it's honestly getting to the point where it's hard to get by without Internet access, even if you don't need it for work, which an increasing number of people do. This is just one example; there are many others.

I don't particularly like the term 'conspiracy theory'. Either something has merit, or it doesn't. If it doesn't have merit, it will fall apart of its own accord, if it does have merit, then I think 'conspiracy theory' is just a weasel word way of dismissing it. But if CT have a point, it should be to open people's eyes to the nature of this economic servitude, and make it clear to people the precise ways in which they're being screwed every day of their lives, why the usual forms of affecting change (eg. voting for mainstream political parties) are redundant, some forms of valid rebellion against the fascist economic system, and hopefully and ideally attempt some form of systematic organisation to at least make some practical steps in the right direction.

I haven't seen this from anyone with a public platform, whether 'conspiracy theorist', or the likes of Pilger and Chomsky, or even people like Christopher Hitchens – whose latterly expressed political views I completely disagreed with – or his brother for that matter. The only person I've actually seen it from is Max Keiser, who will actually say 'here is something you can do', who actually does engage in activism in several ways beyond talking. And they might say, 'why don't you do something?'. Because I haven't got a massive public platform, and I don't know anyone that agrees with me! Everyone I know disagrees with me as an automatic reaction about everything, even if it's 100% documented and cannot possibly be denied.

So I don't have much hope for our generation. Aside from those that don't see how bad things are, there are always a billion apologists for the social order who act as useful idiots because they're too scared or ignorant to face up to reality. But I hope that future generations will one day see that a world in which there are 1 billion people on the verge of starvation, nearly as many that don't have any access to clean water, with 2.5 billion people not having access to safe sanitary conditions, while 2 billion people live on less than $2 per day...but in which the Queen having a small bout of gastroenteritis is headline news...

Is a pretty warped one.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 02:09 #26

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Good post WUB, and i personally dont like the term 'conspiracy' being used either in certain contexts for the reason you said.

wake_up_bomb wrote:
I don't particularly like the term 'conspiracy theory'. Either something has merit, or it doesn't. If it doesn't have merit, it will fall apart of its own accord, if it does have merit, then I think 'conspiracy theory' is just a weasel word way of dismissing it.
Y11
Last Edit: 04 Mar 2013 02:12 by novum.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 02:54 #27

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Excellent post WUB.

So, in a nutshell, it's pitchforks or nowt.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 02:58 #28

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Nah, it's what I said.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 03:00 #29

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jhado wrote:
Nah, it's what I said.

:D
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 03:01 #30

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It's true though. Nothings going to change unless it's a mass amount of people all rebelling. All or nothing.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 08:45 #31

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novum wrote:
Good post WUB, and i personally dont like the term 'conspiracy' being used either in certain contexts for the reason you said.

wake_up_bomb wrote:
I don't particularly like the term 'conspiracy theory'. Either something has merit, or it doesn't. If it doesn't have merit, it will fall apart of its own accord, if it does have merit, then I think 'conspiracy theory' is just a weasel word way of dismissing it.

Its the tactic of a shill to use such broad terms to then somehow come to stupid broad conclusions.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 09:46 #32

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psketti wrote:
It's true though. Nothings going to change unless it's a mass amount of people all rebelling. All or nothing.

Alot of people are rebelling but obviously even more are still living comfortably to the point they don't care about tptb.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 09:57 #33

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Mike wrote:
What's the point of it?

To make poor people aware that they work hard to provide wealthy people a high quality of life.
Mike wrote:
What has it achieved?

That's up to a persons own interpretation.
Mike wrote:
What can it achieve?

A more balanced quality of life for the average person in comparison to a wealthy person.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 11:05 #34

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.......... wrote:
psketti wrote:
It's true though. Nothings going to change unless it's a mass amount of people all rebelling. All or nothing.

Alot of people are rebelling but obviously even more are still living comfortably to the point they don't care about tptb.

Well...thats changing.
Since the 70's we have seen a steady decline in western 'comfort' so to speak in economic terms.
We have seen an increase in certain other comforts though but its largely been at the expense of the public purse and of little real value.

I wouldn't say its 'all or nothing' as we can see in Italy, 25% of the population have taken a serious step and achieved a hell of a lot more than any other country to date barring perhaps Iceland. Iceland has a small population and tight community so its expected that they would be able to overcome tyranny quite easily, however for 25% of a country the size of Italy to do the same is a massive massive change and there's a lot of hope for the future.
A lot of people involved in the serious truth movement (conspiracy FACT rather than theory) want change to happen fast, unfortunately it doesn't work that way but what we are witnessing now are indeed big changes if you consider the variables and timespan and compare it to human history.

As for the questions,

The point is to get people to question authority.

It has achieved that aim and got a hell of a lot of people unhappy with the way things are.

What it can achieve is as yet unknown, I would like to hope it would lead to the end of the current economic paradigm, perhaps moves towards a resource based economy and the end of 'class' and power in the hands of a few.

It is far more than just 'CT' that is involved here, there are FACTUAL movements involved a great 'political awakening' as Brezhinsky called it.
When govts the world over bail out banks to the tune of trillions and then the media blames doleys and immigrants while politicians push for more and more austerity while at the same time saying there will be growth..(LOL!!) then its fairly fucking obvious to many a moron that there's something fishy going on.

IMHO the people in the factual truth movement want this to come to a speedy conclusion because they are worried about the possibility of all this being by design. A 'CT' perhaps but there is some very strong evidence for it and if it is by design you have to question the motive behind it. After all, the proles are waking up in their millions, it 'should' be the LAST thing they would want to do...unless they wish to replace the current system with another of their own making which will put everyone back to sleep again.

Thats my view on it anyway, I genuinely believe that this is a move towards a global single electronic currency, starting in the EU first.
The EU will rise like a phoenix from the ashes, the people will be 'happy' again, China and the US will lose their economic power and will have to come into the digital currency fold. It will be a fait accompli and global coup for the central bankers. They will have total power over the entire planet. They will be able to make and break leaders and countries at will.
Eventually the entire globe will become like the EU, with digital money and digital implanted ID.
Biological brains will become merged with silicon quantum computing.

The 'soma' of the future will be realistic artificial experiences in the brain.

All the above WILL happen I'm 101% convinced of it unless enough people understand the dangers of leaving power in the hands of a few as they will inevitably work in their own personal interests.
We must learn that psyhcos inevitably gravitate towards power and invariably get it (see bankers, priests, social workers, police, politicians etc etc)
Freedom is something people have to continuously fight for to maintain. It is an eternal struggle and it was going on long long before anyone talked about 'conspiracy theories' and David Icke etc.
In that sense this 'CT' mentioned is nothing more than intelligent people carefully watching and guarding against such influence.
For the record, Alex Jones and David Icke are not part of that crowd.
Jacques Fresco definitely is. He's been on top of this game before Alex Jones was born.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 12:15 #35

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psketti wrote:
It's true though. Nothings going to change unless it's a mass amount of people all rebelling. All or nothing.
I don't know what percentage of people you need to affect change, but I do know that you can't have change if people don't want it. As far as I can see, and I'm just basing this on my own personal dealings with people, everyone that I come into contact with wants their own personal circumstances to improve, but doesn't want any fundamental socio-economic change. They wouldn't even know what it meant.

If you look at Occupy Wall Street / London for example, I'm sure there are criticisms that could be leveled at them, but at least their heart was in the right place and they were doing something to raise awareness of the tyranny that takes place on a daily basis. But all that happens is the TV media tells people that they're just a bunch of bolshy, whiney, scruffy, jobless...and the good old police do their masters bidding as usual, and everything continues as normal. I know now that I could go to my family and say "explain what Occupy Wall Street was about", and they wouldn't have the slightest idea. That's if they even knew what it was. If they happened to have seen the TV coverage they would have bought into the propaganda 100% because they barely have minds of their own. Every single opinion that they have is spoonfed to them by the media. They might have read two books between them in the last year, if it's a good year. They don't have the slightest idea what is going on, let alone know enough to push for social change. This is what I see reflected in the society at large every day.
andyh wrote:
When govts the world over bail out banks to the tune of trillions and then the media blames doleys and immigrants while politicians push for more and more austerity while at the same time saying there will be growth..(LOL!!) then its fairly fucking obvious to many a moron that there's something fishy going on.
This is a key point, and it SHOULD be obvious what's happening! I think you're absolutely right about Europe, and maybe there's more hope / awareness / solidarity there. The British public seem to be particularly moribund, to me at least.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 12:20 #36

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Yep the Beppe Grillo thing is an amazing phenomenon.
Far bigger than Alex Jones or David Icke put together, the italians are beginning to bite back.

I guess the UK has not as yet gone through the same horror that some other EU states have but its coming!
Despite the pain its a good thing IMHO, the longer people suffer the more likely they are to wake up
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 18:21 #37

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WUB thank you for a very well considered contribution to the topic, i find your pessimism and snobbery quite repugnant personally, but I won't waste my time addressing that personal character flaw other than to say I find that kind of socially alienating attitude prevalent amongst Conspiracy theorists whom I know.
I don't particularly like the term 'conspiracy theory'. Either something has merit, or it doesn't. If it doesn't have merit, it will fall apart of its own accord, if it does have merit, then I think 'conspiracy theory' is just a weasel word way of dismissing it. But if CT have a point, it should be to open people's eyes to the nature of this economic servitude, and make it clear to people the precise ways in which they're being screwed every day of their lives, why the usual forms of affecting change (eg. voting for mainstream political parties) are redundant, some forms of valid rebellion against the fascist economic system, and hopefully and ideally attempt some form of systematic organisation to at least make some practical steps in the right direction.
To me this seems like a very substantial part of your answer, and it covers a lot of interesting points, I find it interesting you think CT should take the place of Critical economic theory, Marx did more to contribute to an understanding of Parliamentary democracy and Capital than any Conspiracy theorist to my knowledge, yet his work is almost complete ignored in the CT narrative, some might also say in the broad "Marxism acquainted" left, there already exists a degree and varying degrees of systematic organisation to conduct "rebellion against the economic system", but your point is not to improve on or regenerate those traditions by being part of them but to do something different.

So being acquainted with the anti WTO anti Capitalism and neo-colonial movements of the 1990's early 2000's it seems like CT detracts from the understanding developed within these tendencies, mass movements of subjects like Capitalism, the IMF, World Trade, Nafta, Gatts, Neo-Liberalism etc, and actually doesn't focus as you'd prefer on the material elements of our enslavement, CT also seems to discount a large amount of theory in those fields.

CT is not fundamentally anti-capitalist, I would say it's closer to reactionary capitalist or free market capitalism on most economic questions, I haven't met one CTer who really makes an effort to explain the economic system, or could explain it substantially, so you tend to get perpetually referred to talking heads who "explain it", or are told about 10 or so things that are wrong with the current economy the importance of which differs between who you talk to, some people buy the austerity crap, some people buy the gold standard nonsense, some people buy the Keynesian fuel consumption line, they all discount the environmental impact in their growth and development models so this influences exactly what one is told, generally a bundle of problems with the Economy, linked to some reactionary nonsense about the UN, IMF and Government debt, or maybe a song or two about the wealthy jewish bankers.
Last Edit: 04 Mar 2013 18:22 by Mike.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 18:27 #38

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Another thing, there is a bundle of unaffiliated, independent political organisations that have sprung up in resistance and solidarity with the victims of government cuts, where is the CT involvement, is there any?

In my experience of the Black Flag campaign it is people with Socialist values and traditions that are disillusioned with Labour's neo-liberal and right wing traits, setting up organizations for resistance, they are filling a gap left by the absence of Labour's left wing, I don't think the average CTer would understand that statement, they'd just say "left and right aren't real man" or something along those lines.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 18:32 #39

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Mike wrote:
Another thing, there is a bundle of unaffiliated, independent political organisations that have sprung up in resistance and solidarity with the victims of government cuts, where is the CT involvement, is there any?

Beppe Grillo has made frequent references to economic collapse by design and how the left and right co-operate to bring about the same agenda for their paymasters.
I guess that makes him a conspiracy theorist or conspiracy factualist depending on how you look at it.
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Point of Conspiracy Theory? 04 Mar 2013 18:33 #40

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Mike wrote:
WUB thank you for a very well considered contribution to the topic, i find your pessimism and snobbery quite repugnant personally, but I won't waste my time addressing that personal character flaw other than to say I find that kind of socially alienating attitude prevalent amongst Conspiracy theorists whom I know.
Go into the street now and ask people "what does 'I promise to pay' mean, and what is the significance of it"? See how many people know. Report back to us.

Beyond that, I'm not interested in discussing your other points. I'm only interested in facts. The facts are we are fucked beyond economic repair, and there is no easy answer to this. There is no political answer, I assure you. Again, the overwhelming majority of people in Britain not only can't imagine a change to the existing socio-economic system, they don't (a) know it exists, or (b) want any change. Until they perceive it affects them. I assure you that is the case. If you want to believe something else, that's up to you. Believe that the moon's made out of cheese, believe whatever you want, it's none of my business.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 04 Mar 2013 18:36 by wake_up_bomb.
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