SilvaRizla wrote:
If you are the creator of all things and you create an angel (an inferior being) and then that angel says "fuck you, I'm going to replace you bayatch and become God myself" what do you do? well he's in YOUR house, you've given him everything and he treats you with malice and disrespect, what you do is throw that fucker out of your house.

Kalki Vishnu wrote:
Its easier to look at it this way, granted. However, if you were to consider it from the pov that you are 'god', as is the computer you're typing on, and the chair you're sat on, you might come to a different conclusion re 'aliens'.

Ab Origine wrote:
I don't see how. I do believe that we are all a part of an infinite fabric of conciousness, yet the god of the bible quite clearly does not hold the same belief. He is a golden bull.

Ab Origine wrote:
All of creation comes from God, all beings are created from God (even if we are ourselves of God consciousness we are still created beings because we have been given individuality and thus a seperate form) and so we are creations within creation, thus we are bound by that creation, within creation heavenly places have been created aswell as earthly ones. Heaven is the 'place of the goodness of creation' and is where you go to be closer to the primary Godhead consciousness (the heart if you will of the creator), so heaven is a real place and is therefore a place one (a created personality) can be thrown out of.

Kalki Vishnu wrote:
Is not the creator of all things also all knowing? Seems a little stupid to me then, that he could not forsee what would happen. Could it not be said that he would of been the direct cause? He knew what would happen and chose to create such beings. Why then is he so angry, and who is he angry at? He has only himself to blame if we a re to believe his claims.

SilvaRizla wrote:
Free will is given whether or not the outcome is known or not.

SilvaRizla wrote:
I wasn't talking to you.

ALL beings were created equally perfect and equally good, free will is then given to them to choose.

I may have a son an I know that there are certain actions he is going to take, I don't step in because he has free will and must learn from his own mistakes. Thus knowing the outcome makes little difference to the events to unfold.

Kalki Vishnu wrote:
That doesn't really answer my question. He's angry at his decision to create such things. The process started with his own free will, not ours. Was there not a different path to choose with a different outcome? I suggest there was, and on an infinite scale.

The creator has no right to be angry nor throw anyone out of anywhere.

He created us in his own image did he not? He mustn't like himself that much.

If he is indeed master of all creation, would he not have to create the sorcerers whom he is so angry at whom may challenge his power? Where did they get their power from? Surely he must have given it to them?

Ab Origine wrote:
Ah, ok

Kalki Vishnu wrote:
If you are all knowing, free will is an illusion. We think we have free will and we don't if God already knows the answer. That's called fate.

All of this is by-the-by of course because no evidence can be provided to suggest aliens or angels exist.

SilvaRizla wrote:
God can step outside of time and look to any point of it he chooses. Being able to see any point in time he wishes (making him all knowing) does not mean he controls directly everyones action or even wrote the script.

You could write a piece of software for a universe with laws etc and then set it in motion, it will evolve of it's own accord, you place within that simulation free will to the beings within it. Now as God you can click a button and see how the simulation looks in 100 years time, you are thus all knowing cos you can do that, but it's entirely fluidic in nature, God can then go to a previous point in time and do something and change the outcome of the simulation (an act of God) and the simulation will then alter itself accordingly but all people still have free will. God has his plan for the universe he created, the beings he created have a choice to go with that plan or not go with that plan, either way God can't please everyone, not when they have the free will to go against him.

Kalki Vishnu wrote:
But, he knows that the results of our "free will" is a domino effect of his actions in creating us. He knew this when he created us because as you say he exists outside of time. So why then, is he so pissed off at us? If he wasn't happy he could of just remolded adams clay into something more suited to his liking.

Do you not get it?

Our actions shouldnt come as any great surprise.

SilvaRizla wrote:
Another interesting twist might be that the entity responsible for creating us and everything we can perceive, pehaps isn't 'all knowing', in so far as it knows how to be all that is...but, then what? What would the opposite of 'all that is' be? Perhaps to think we are seperate and individual and all going about our own lives. Lives full of infinite variety and possibilities, played out in billions of different ways, at supposedly different 'times' and in all manner of different, places, planets and planes. Maybe.

ok check this....

God creates the universe and angels and humans. Everything is perfect, everyone is good and loving and are subject to Gods will because they have no free will. So basically they are all just puppets and he is the puppeteer.
How boring would that be? these beings would not really be alive or sentient, they'd be robots. So how does he change that? he blesses them with his own divine power which is 'free will'. By giving them free will he brings them to life, they are no longer robots but sentient entities. Now in the beginning they were ALL created perfect, God even brought forth laws in heaven and in Eden in order to try and ensure that all created beings remain good and with God.
Is it Gods fault should any of those beings use their free will to rebel against God?? he blessed them afterall with free will, to save them are you telling me he should remove that free will from them? for what purpose then did he give it in the first place?
He gave you life through love, if you suffer and hate and do evil things and are punished for it, is that not YOUR fault?
Has laws and commandments not been placed in front of your eyes to save you from judgement and terrible fate? if you ignore them is that not YOUR fault and not his for giving you free will and life and sentience?

Whether God knows the outcome or not, he HAS given you the chance and opportunity within this simulation of life to direct your free will in the correct direction. He may know your fate but did he CREATE you fate? you created your own fate, he just gave you free will.

I'm not saying that, certainly. I'm suggesting that there never was any kind of division between 'us' and 'angels/aliens/anything other than of this particular planet' because its all the same stuff.

I agree entirely, we all have free will.

I don't agree however, that there is necessarily a 'correct' way to use it. Correct in whose opinion? I think this is where we got tripped up earlier, possibly.

What I'm saying is, if he's all knowing and all powerful, what the fuck is he doing bitching about what I do with my free will? Doesn't seem all that "divine" to me. He gave it me. If he wasn't happy about the situation don't do it. But he did, and did so knowing the consequences. Why all the hate, God?

Whilst we're at it, why is it ok for you to murder people but not us? You know, using that free will that you have that you apparently gave to us.

Seems a little hypocritical to me.

What about thou shalt not steal? You stolen one of Adams ribs to create Eve.

You created everything, including hell. You knew that you would send some of us there because of the flaws that you yourself gave us, so why torture us? A you a bit sick in the head or something dear lord?

Like I say, none of it matters for there is no proof for God, Angels, or Aliens. If you show me some, I'll happily debate it.

Do you get it yet?

Imagine God has create the universe, it's beginning to end and he sees it all.
He has a graph showing the timeline. He makes everyone at the beginning of the timeline perfect, he sees by the end of it that all people fall into sin (sin being the breaking of gods rules of goodness).
He's given everyone free will and he will not intervene with it, however he loves us and wants us to be free from sin and inherit eternal life and a return to Eden. So what he does is he drops pieces of divine knowledge into parts of the timeline, he drops in laws and commandments to lead the way, he even drops in a jesus to light the way for us.
As he keeps dropping these divine pieces of intervention into the timeline the timeline alters/updates and theres a counter displayed which displays all the people who will be saved and who wont. He keeps adding in more and more and more stuff trying to direct peoples free will in the correct direction and save as many as possible, he watches as the counter increases saying more people are saved.
HOWEVER. There is only so much he can do without outright stripping you of your free will. He can light your path as much as possible but in the end it's down to your own decisions. Those in the end time who are not saved could never have been saved because despite all his guidance in the timeline that he kept dropping in, they did not change from their negative or evil ways.
In conclusion, he's done his best to direct you but also not infringe on your free will. Seeing the whole of time is different from pre-choosing your fate.
So stop blaming God, he's not your enemy, you are your own enemy.

We create "God" in our own image and any such image is limited by what our little pea-brains can cope with. A more advanced civilisation may have very different concepts. Indeed if they visited Earth we might regard them as god-like.