I'm with you too wub, but he was old school and always played it old school rules. I'll always respect anyone who lives their lives as best they can according to their expressed convictions. I'll never be 100% the man I'd hope to be in my lifetime due to my own limitations as a a human and societies limitations as a society. He falls into the same bracket for me.

aliceinw wrote: I wouldn't disagree with that at all, and if everyone in the world, or in parliament, was like him then things would be very different. For me, I just view participating in parliament, or even going out to cast a vote, as an act of futility.

I read an obituary of Benn on the BBC, and George Galloway was quoted:

Okay...let’s assess how successful that was...

Bringing oil into public ownership...FAILED
Iraq war...FAILED
Nuclear weapons...FAILED
European Union...FAILED

And this is despite the fact that, as Galloway himself said, “most people agreed with him”. That sort of success rate would cause me to question the system I was participating in!

That’s what I can’t understand. I’m sure he was absolutely sincere in his beliefs, I just cannot understand why he was still in parliament and still evidently believed in it.

Whether we like it or not we are in a country that is ruled by politicians

Tony Benn was a man who spent his live fighting for the common man.

Wub's to say he shuld never have been involved in politics is daft. We need more people like Tony Benn not less

'We' need to take our politics to the nth degree to understand our own politics.

dawnbreak wrote: I don't believe in representative democracy, and that's it. The political system has to change radically, otherwise there's no point in engaging with it, unless you can hire millions and billions of pounds worth of lobbyists.

I don't disagree that Tony Benn believed in fighting for the common man and woman and did so, what I do questions is whether there was any point. You can see in post #22 what you are up against.

I'm fine with us respectfully disagreeing WUB.
You know I state that without sarcasm and I do see how it's possible to reach your position.

I also acknowledge though, that absent a fully understood and ready-to-hit-the-boards-running replacement, we are compelled to keep chipping away and attempting to breathe life into the current system.

Why?

Because if we stop participating, the system will keep going and the right wingers and nutcases get an unrestricted ride and we might never get a second chance at grabbing the brake handle again.

Example:
When the expenses scandal broke and people boycotted the process we ended up with BNP members being sent to Strasbourg.
Their support numbers didn't rise one iota. All it took was for us to remove our voice.

I can't apologise for being unwilling to take that gamble on a wider scale. Fuck That!
I'd describe myself as a socialist but I never join any parties. Doing so would raise an expectation of obedience to a party line. I'm not so good with that.

Benn was a man who did what was right when he was in a position to do so and said what was right when he was in a less powerful position. Few in politics maintain that integrity.
The man inspired my parents, their children and my own children.
My daughter and I went to see him talk in Edinburgh a couple of years ago, (She bought the tickets, I'm proud to say), He was a catalyst for her becoming more active for change.

She is aware of how difficult it will be to begin to effect change but she's up for it and there's more like her out there everyday.
Good luck and more power to their elbows.

I understand where you're coming from, Feather, I just don't see any difference between the Lib-Lab-Cons. I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference which one you vote for. I understand why people can be concerned about the BNP and all that, but I have to say that I'm not remotely concerned about them because I don't see any conceivable way that they can even get one seat. And I don't see any prospect whatsoever of some sort of far-right uprising in this day and age in the UK at least. There is just no public appetite for it. I expect the Lib Dems will probably get wiped out at the next election, and most of the country will be torn between Labour and the Tories again, and I can barely contemplate the car crash of lies, disingenuous arguments and disastrous policies that will follow.

He tried. More than this cynic did.

We already have a system where more often than not fewer vote for the 'winners' than voted for someone else...
Which is just crap. These are the 'winners' who then take us to war etc etc.
The system of first past the post isn't seriously questioned in britain....we aren't even that politically savvy as a nation.

My question is. Below what percentage turnout does an election become void?
We already only get half the folk voting and only a percentage of them voting for the 'winners'.

As little as say 25% of eligible voters ticking yojr box will likely see you in power.
Power to do what the heck for four years or more...
This is just crap.

I am with wub. This doesn't mean i am politically apathetic. It means i won't take part in a charade and give my seal of approval to this system.

There are established alternatives. Dd being the most attractive step from here imo.

Turnouts in Australia are around 90% — because not to vote is a criminal offence.

dubmeup wrote: Actually, much though I believe in direct democracy, when people were given the opportunity to very slightly improve that system, they emphatically voted against it:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13297573

I didn't vote obviously because it doesn't make a rat's arse of a difference to me one way or another, and I'm not registered to vote, but presented with the opportunity to implement a slightly less absurd system than FPTP, people passionately voted in favour of the status quo.

I have looked this up...in my life I have lived in numerous constituencies, and none of them has ever changed hands. Voting for me would have been literally pointless. It's the same for at least 95 percent of the population. All that counts is a few swing voters in a few marginal seats. The political parties know this and target them and them alone. Not that it makes any difference which one of the three gets in; we surely should have established this by now.

This is why parties like the BNP or even UKIP are so strongly opposed by the three main political parties and the broadcast media in particular, because they represent change. In the BNP's case very bad change, and in UKIP's case change that will be pretty much benign and meaningless, but change nevertheless. All change is to be opposed because the political system is already completely stitched up, and the people that benefit from it are perfectly happy with the way things operate. They would oppose good change as well, but they don't oppose the BNP because they're bad, but just merely because they're not part of the club.

I couldn't stand Viscount Stansgate. Sorry!

Neither could Tony Benn.

I didn't vote obviously because it doesn't make a rat's arse of a difference to me one way or another,


This is were you are going wrong WUBs as is does actually make a difference if you vote or not

I'm not suggesting things will work out hunky dory if you vote

But by not voting you are just being a person who is going 'well what difference will it make' and allowing the tories to get

Given that britain has election you should at least vote ....even if you don't believe in a party vote for the the one who will do the least damage

I fail to believe that there's an expectation people will turn up at the ballot boxes in their droves if we adopt Direct Democracy.
You have a DD here and the same old tired faces turn up for each vote, the majority don't bother or stand aloof from it all.

DD would also result in a number of disappointed wee quivering lips after each result.

I reckon you're chasing rainbows guys and you're safe and can't be proven wrong because no-ones really caught one yet.

The world is unfair and a good example of direct democracy would be all the crap you see on tv. People chose that.
Beware your dream etc........

@ wub
yeah my point was that the british folk aren't even savvy enough to ditch fptp, let alone begin to address the system of rep dem
so um yeah, i agree

Sadly though tiz true innit feather.
Whilst i don't agree that folk choose the shit on tv i do agree that the people just aren't up for it collectively.
There are myriad reasons and myriad issues that would need addressing before the people were in a position to address this like informed and contented adults. As andy often says, absent cataclysm it's hard to see that happening from here.
Also as you say, this place is a microcosm of that sort of thing.

But.
Knowing of better ways and attempting to highlight them is not imo 'chasing rainbows'. It is the only sensible thing to do in my position. I will not vote even if britland goes as verlander described...
The system is not fit for purpose. It's very foundations are built on corrupted bedrock. Everything built upon it is corrupt and i will not support it. It's a spiritual thing i guess.

Sorry we didn't come up to your expectations.

They are only better ways if they are designed to fit the client.
All you guys expect the client to evolve to fit the proposal.
Prep yourselves for a lifetime of disappointment.

A tad defensive but i can see where that comes from.
I don't blame folk or think they are thick or lacking spirit or anything. There has never been a level playing field. The web of lies infests every aspect of civilised life. We the people never really stood a chance. If we did it was long ago imo. And we clearly failed if we ever even did have that chance.
But huxley was right with the ultimate revolution thing imo. That is what i see, except people aren't all content and stupified...
They are stressed, worried, scared in many cases. If anything that's the soma drug. So much inner doubt and layer upon layer of society led bullshit notions about bodies, bank balances, goods and chattels.
The people are far too concerned about paying for their homes to have time to indulge in um looking at it objectively and going oh yeah thats how we are being fucked what could we do to sort this bullshit out?

Sorry i am waffling.