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TOPIC: No-one should ever work! Fuck work!

No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 15:54 #161

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andyh wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

People are choosing to work. We always have that choice. The notion of wage slavery is quasi in nature. If people don't like it, they are welcome to purchase a small piece of land, and some minimal tools and crack on not requiring the services of others.

What has to be made clear and understood is that the labour is the direction of humanity.
If the work owners and controllers direct the work then they get to decide the future of humanity.
I do hope that is very crystal clear.

Of course it is, and unless you wanna live in the stone age (which was what my whole argument has been about yet you seem to think we don't need to work and you can be a slave-master quiet easily) it always will be. The important thing, is to make sure that the work people do is valued correctly.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 15:55 #162

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andyh wrote:
......

Anarcho-syndicalism is not a communist barter system barnfish......

Read the history of anarcho-syndicalism and you will see its origins are from worker empowerment theories such as Marxism in what can be broadly described as communistic. If you abolish money you are only left with barter.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 15:56 #163

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Barnfish wrote:

Having a reserve makes them safe as it stops collapses. The point of such financial institutions is that they are owned by those who invest in them. They are properly regulated. They have to behave. If people removed their money from the greed mongers and went to more socially empowered and aware organisations, the bankers would have to adapt or go out of work. They would have to accept ownership based on money deposited instead of shareholders and strict instead of loose regulation.

Correct. I agree completely in as far as it goes.
There's still the problem of fractional reserve currencies though.

Again, read up on anarcho-syndicalism you might find it interesting and relevant to what you said above because it has its own banks that do just what you said PLUS it addresses the fr banking issue along with 100 other problems, whats more, it deals with it in a way that is not political. Theres a video on the site about Mondragon by Horizon back in the 80's. It will never be shown on TV again, I'm surprised it hasn't been deleted off youtube yet.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 15:57 #164

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I haven't really got the time or energy for debates any more, but I just wanted to point something out. We're all fortunate that we live in a society which generally benefits from the status quo. We tend to forget that the majority of the world is not in this situation. When the people involved in OWS (who I respect) were talking about "the 1%", what they failed to recognise is that everyday people making, for example, £30,000 per year are the 1% in global terms.

Here are some statistics about poverty:
At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.

More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.

The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.

According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death."

Around 27-28 percent of all children in developing countries are estimated to be underweight or stunted. The two regions that account for the bulk of the deficit are South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

If current trends continue, the Millennium Development Goals target of halving the proportion of underweight children will be missed by 30 million children, largely because of slow progress in Southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

Based on enrollment data, about 72 million children of primary school age in the developing world were not in school in 2005; 57 per cent of them were girls. And these are regarded as optimistic numbers.

Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.

Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.

Infectious diseases continue to blight the lives of the poor across the world. An estimated 40 million people are living with HIV/AIDS, with 3 million deaths in 2004. Every year there are 350–500 million cases of malaria, with 1 million fatalities: Africa accounts for 90 percent of malarial deaths and African children account for over 80 percent of malaria victims worldwide.

Water problems affect half of humanity:

Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.

Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.

More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.

Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%.

1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.)

Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea

The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness.

Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits.
Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water.

To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit.… The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions … are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003.

Number of children in the world
2.2 billion

Number in poverty
1 billion (every second child)

Shelter, safe water and health

For the 1.9 billion children from the developing world, there are:

640 million without adequate shelter (1 in 3)
400 million with no access to safe water (1 in 5)
270 million with no access to health services (1 in 7)
Children out of education worldwide
121 million

Survival for children
Worldwide,

10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (same as children population in France, Germany, Greece and Italy)
1.4 million die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation

Health of children
Worldwide,

2.2 million children die each year because they are not immunized
15 million children orphaned due to HIV/AIDS (similar to the total children population in Germany or United Kingdom)

Rural areas account for three in every four people living on less than US$1 a day and a similar share of the world population suffering from malnutrition. However, urbanization is not synonymous with human progress. Urban slum growth is outpacing urban growth by a wide margin.

Approximately half the world’s population now live in cities and towns. In 2005, one out of three urban dwellers (approximately 1 billion people) was living in slum conditions.

In developing countries some 2.5 billion people are forced to rely on biomass—fuelwood, charcoal and animal dung—to meet their energy needs for cooking. In sub-Saharan Africa, over 80 percent of the population depends on traditional biomass for cooking, as do over half of the populations of India and China.

Indoor air pollution resulting from the use of solid fuels [by poorer segments of society] is a major killer. It claims the lives of 1.5 million people each year, more than half of them below the age of five: that is 4000 deaths a day. To put this number in context, it exceeds total deaths from malaria and rivals the number of deaths from tuberculosis.

In 2005, the wealthiest 20% of the world accounted for 76.6% of total private consumption. The poorest fifth just 1.5%:
That's not even close to be the whole list, it just goes on and on and on, but it can be read here:

www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

Now you can't tell me that all this occurs, but it could be solved by just slightly changing the economic system! Or that it's anything other than a direct product of the existing system. If you have a system where 2 billion people live off $2 per day or less, but banks control, conservatively, tens of trillions of dollars of assets, and literally gamble quadrillions every year, I don't see any form of wealth redistribution or economic realignment that can possibly make a significant difference. There has to be a more radical solution, or no solution at all.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 15:59 #165

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andyh wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
andyh wrote:
@SilvaRizla.

As I pointed out earlier..Anytime the elite see fit they can pull the plug and devalue the currency of the tokens that are 'universally accepted'.
They control the tokens that are 'universally accepted', they control the prices that are paid for real world goods by market manipulation and taxation and the only reason its 'universally accepted' is because its enforced by their armed goon squads (read police and armed forces).

Now you can explain how that isn't slavery and how you don't actually work for Goldman Sachs.

Are you jewish? lol...

Anti-semitism. Nice.

Why are you talking about money. WE don't fucking need monetary system we have now! The only thing we need is work (exchange of goods/service) and a symbol. You've been arguing that work isn't needed, remember?

Its the core thing we do need!

I agree that real money would help.

Now explain how you would enforce the elite to accept a solid gold or silver coin system :)

EDIT: The anti-semitism you have mis-interpreted btw is my tongue in cheek humour as a prod at the choo choo crowd on DIF but nm long ago long story

I'm glad we're on the same page now, I missed this reply.

The beauty of a new system is that we don't need to convince the elite of anything. We don't need gold or silver either. For shits and giggles lets trade cheese.

If enough people start trading their own form of currency the elites will be elites no more ;)

There was a place doing this not long ago. I can't remember where (damn) it seemed to be working
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 15:59 #166

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Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
......

Anarcho-syndicalism is not a communist barter system barnfish......

Read the history of anarcho-syndicalism and you will see its origins are from worker empowerment theories such as Marxism in what can be broadly described as communistic. If you abolish money you are only left with barter.

So workers having more pay, control over their work and owning co-op banks is communist but having a co-op bank account on its own is good.
Go watch the mondragon video, you'll find it far far removed from any chairman mao bollocks.
Mondragon exists now today in Spain and has been running successfully for donkeys years.
They are self employed...thats hardly marxist is it?
Go ahead and try for an hour to put aside your emotional biased bullshit and educate yourself.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:02 #167

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Barnfish wrote:

Will people be happier under your system? What happens if someone wants a good or service from another, but they have nothing to exchange for it?

If the needs of the whole world are met then why wouldn't people be happy?
I"m not sure what this fascination with people exchanging goods & services is. It wouldn't be relevant or necessary.
This now sounds like a plan to have robots take over the world, making people redundant.

"Take over" is a little over dramatic. Appropriately manage human needs balanced with available resources, yes. Perfectly logical.
Redundant..... but not on benefits. Imagine all that pesky free time..... better education, better health, higher quality of lifestyle..... for everybody. Sounds terrible. If 97% of all jobs could be automated..... do you think people are still going to need a paper currency? Any work that did need undertaking there will be people who would be more than willing to do so, and their payment is the reward of living in a rich abundant society. I'd certainly be putting my share in. You?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:03 #168

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andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:

Having a reserve makes them safe as it stops collapses. The point of such financial institutions is that they are owned by those who invest in them. They are properly regulated. They have to behave. If people removed their money from the greed mongers and went to more socially empowered and aware organisations, the bankers would have to adapt or go out of work. They would have to accept ownership based on money deposited instead of shareholders and strict instead of loose regulation.

Correct. I agree completely in as far as it goes.
There's still the problem of fractional reserve currencies though.

Again, read up on anarcho-syndicalism you might find it interesting and relevant to what you said above because it has its own banks that do just what you said PLUS it addresses the fr banking issue along with 100 other problems, whats more, it deals with it in a way that is not political. Theres a video on the site about Mondragon by Horizon back in the 80's. It will never be shown on TV again, I'm surprised it hasn't been deleted off youtube yet.

I think it is you who needs to do some reading. Building societies, credit unions and trustee savings banks are creations of the working man so they control the money. The working man who wants to be paid a decent wage for a decent days work and keep control of the money and use it to buy whatever they want.

Have you read Animal Farm?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:03 #169

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
<snip>
Now you can't tell me that all this occurs, but it could be solved by just slightly changing the economic system! Or that it's anything other than a direct product of the existing system. If you have a system where 2 billion people live off $2 per day or less, but banks control, conservatively, tens of trillions of dollars of assets, and literally gamble quadrillions every year, I don't see any form of wealth redistribution or economic realignment that can possibly make a significant difference. There has to be a more radical solution, or no solution at all.

I agree. I personally feel that its because their work is vastly undervalued. Ideally they need to stop trading with those who don't value them accordingly . Whether this can be done, idk.

Its not the system, (well it is in a way, like an 'enabler') its certain people in it, not playing by the rules
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:05 #170

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This commie system called mondragon you support is still based on selling one's labour for an income, just the return you get for selling isn't as good because there is absolutely no competition and the state dictates the wages. Sounds great you commie Jihadi wannabe.

The ideal system is somewhere like the USA, all you need there is an idea and a viable business plan and you can go as far as you want, that's why credit is a great thing, it enables more and more people to escape poverty :)
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:06 #171

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simulacra wrote:
This commie system called mondragon you support is still based on selling one's labour for an income, just the return you get for selling isn't as good because there is absolutely no competition and the state dictates the wages. Sounds great you commie Jihadi wannabe.

The ideal system is somewhere like the USA, all you need there is an idea and a viable business plan and you can go as far as you want, that's why credit is a great thing, it enables more and more people to escape poverty :)

Do you know what Mondragon is?

Any of you?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:08 #172

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SilvaRizla wrote:

People are choosing to work. We always have that choice. The notion of wage slavery is quasi in nature. If people don't like it, they are welcome to purchase a small piece of land, and some minimal tools and crack on not requiring the services of others.

There is no choice for most people.
How do you purchase land ?
:conf:
Oh that's right.... work in some pointless dead end job that has no bearing on creating a better society more than likely.
Nobody has argued that we don't currently require the services of others, or money, to survive.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:09 #173

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
......
Now you can't tell me that all this occurs, but it could be solved by just slightly changing the economic system! Or that it's anything other than a direct product of the existing system. If you have a system where 2 billion people live off $2 per day or less, but banks control, conservatively, tens of trillions of dollars of assets, and literally gamble quadrillions every year, I don't see any form of wealth redistribution or economic realignment that can possibly make a significant difference. There has to be a more radical solution, or no solution at all.

Give a man a fish and he eats a fish for one meal.
Give a man a fishing rod and he eats many fish.
Give a man the means to make fishing rods and he eats many meals not just fish as he can sell his rods.
Give a man the means to make fishing rods and the ability to trade on even terms with all other fishing rod makers and you have part of the solution to global poverty.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:10 #174

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andyh wrote:
simulacra wrote:
This commie system called mondragon you support is still based on selling one's labour for an income, just the return you get for selling isn't as good because there is absolutely no competition and the state dictates the wages. Sounds great you commie Jihadi wannabe.

The ideal system is somewhere like the USA, all you need there is an idea and a viable business plan and you can go as far as you want, that's why credit is a great thing, it enables more and more people to escape poverty :)

Do you know what Mondragon is?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

Any of you?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:14 #175

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Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

People are choosing to work. We always have that choice. The notion of wage slavery is quasi in nature. If people don't like it, they are welcome to purchase a small piece of land, and some minimal tools and crack on not requiring the services of others.

There is no choice for most people.
How do you purchase land ?
:conf:
Oh that's right.... work in some pointless dead end job that has no bearing on creating a better society more than likely.
Nobody has argued that we don't currently require the services of others, or money, to survive.

OK don't purchase land. Set up in the middle of the forest somewhere. Make your tools out of twigs if you want. The point is, you aren't being forced to do anything. You're choosing to. If you don't want to then fair enough go and build the dream.

Nobody has argued what? That's what the video was about. (You should know, you posted it) The whole topic of discussion. People started talking about some fantasy world of robots doing EVERYTHING. A world we just don't live in. Before this, I said that the whole idea of stopping work is farcical, laughable and idiotic, and it is.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:16 #176

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Barnfish wrote:
wake_up_bomb wrote:
......
Now you can't tell me that all this occurs, but it could be solved by just slightly changing the economic system! Or that it's anything other than a direct product of the existing system. If you have a system where 2 billion people live off $2 per day or less, but banks control, conservatively, tens of trillions of dollars of assets, and literally gamble quadrillions every year, I don't see any form of wealth redistribution or economic realignment that can possibly make a significant difference. There has to be a more radical solution, or no solution at all.

Give a man a fish and he eats a fish for one meal.
Give a man a fishing rod and he eats many fish.
Give a man the means to make fishing rods and he eats many meals not just fish as he can sell his rods.
Give a man the means to make fishing rods and the ability to trade on even terms with all other fishing rod makers and you have part of the solution to global poverty.

That you do, but unfortunately I fear that if you give a fishing rod to some in this thread, they'll swap it for a fish ;)
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:17 #177

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Right so..

Do people understand that Mondragon uses money and uses direct democracy?

That being the case it cannot be considered as communist because it doesn't have a poliburo etc.

Just again for clarity here.

They have:

Their own banks.
Their own shops
Their own schools
Their own colleges
Their own university
Their own healthcare
Their own accountants
Their own lawyers
Some of the highest salaries in Europe, pay very little tax, recycle their own wealth back into their own system and fuck the government.

Now tell me again how this is communist?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:18 #178

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andyh wrote:

Any of you?

Yes, obviously. :)
I watched the docu a couple of years ago.
It's not the be all & end all but it's certainly better than what we've got.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:19 #179

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SilvaRizla wrote:

That you do, but unfortunately I fear that if you give a fishing rod to some in this thread, they'll swap it for a fish ;)

They might just use it to reel in some unsuspecting punters. ;)
Or they might just chuck it away because fish are minging!
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:20 #180

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SilvaRizla wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

People are choosing to work. We always have that choice. The notion of wage slavery is quasi in nature. If people don't like it, they are welcome to purchase a small piece of land, and some minimal tools and crack on not requiring the services of others.

There is no choice for most people.
How do you purchase land ?
:conf:
Oh that's right.... work in some pointless dead end job that has no bearing on creating a better society more than likely.
Nobody has argued that we don't currently require the services of others, or money, to survive.

OK don't purchase land. Set up in the middle of the forest somewhere. Make your tools out of twigs if you want. The point is, you aren't being forced to do anything. You're choosing to. If you don't want to then fair enough go and build the dream.

Nobody has argued what? That's what the video was about. (You should know, you posted it) The whole topic of discussion. People started talking about some fantasy world of robots doing EVERYTHING. A world we just don't live in. Before this, I said that the whole idea of stopping work is farcical, laughable and idiotic, and it is.

Robots cannot do all tasks, only menial tasks can be automated. Other tasks can be facilitated and yet further tasks only humans can do alone.
That said, this still has yet to touch on transhumanism yet which is anoher hair-raising topic which touches yet even further on this one from various tangential angles lol.

I would stick with anarcho-syndicalism for the mo though because thats what I specifically propose as being the best step, barnfish touched on it with co-op banking but A.S. is taking co-op far beyond merely banking.
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