andyh wrote:
Being paid is not slavery. Not being paid is slavery. You promote slavery. That is vile. The term wage slave is peddled by those who want to enslave others in the true sense of slavery. People like you who want others to toil for nothing.

Barnfish wrote:
You work for pay. That pay is exchanged for other people's work for pay. (wage slavery)
I've never suggested forcing others to work for free..... feeble strawman.

SilvaRizla wrote:
Absolutely yes.

If I ask for my wages in such payment though it will be refused

And absolutely yes its an exchange of services or items, assuming that such items actually have value and what were asked for in contract of trade, if not then fraud is involved which is criminal act. If said fraud leads to labour under false pretences then it is slavery is it not?

Money itself and the movement of it doesn't create inequality in itself. It is the corruption of certain bodies in the system that does this. You said these numbers changing hands isn't relevant to GDP. This isn't true. It boosts GDP as people do more work, which is something you seem to understand anyway as you know that it becomes worthless if it totally ceases to circulate.

Money as an entity is ESSENTIAL if you don't have a skill that EVERYONE needs ALL THE TIME.

Barnfish wrote:
How does the existing plan NOT do that already?
Do you work for goldman sachs btw?

SilvaRizla wrote:
The movement of money doesn't create inequality? How?????????????????? Are you saying the movement of money doesn't favour the rich?
Yes it lies in corruption.... so once that money has moved to the rich to create corruption (passing laws etc etc etc) how is that going to be changed when they now run it as a system that will keep on favouring them?
I didn't say it doesn't create GDP. I argued that it is less important than the fundamentals of life, which money does not provide for the majority of people.
Are you saying that money is the only way in which a society can be structured? Is this it forever?

Space Bandit wrote:
Working for pay is not slavery, it is corruption of the term slavery which is an insult to those who are genuinely slaves. Slaves worked for no pay and in return got basic food and shelter. That is all people will get in your system as there is no incentive to trade anything more than that in return for work. Those who own land will be the ones who are well off and return to a feudal system of serfs and horrendous inequality.

.........

What I actually advocate is an anarcho-syndicalist co-op system which makes use of the present economic system and sabotages it by making use of its own loopholes via self employment and ltd companies within a corporation and ownership of its own resources,labour and equal division and recycling of pay and equal voting controlling rights by the workers for the workers instead of for rich shareholders.

I would then and only then out of such a system propose some sort of transitional system towards what TVP is like and even then not exactly like TVP because I believe some of Fresco's proposals are very wrong.

Bear that very strongly in mind because myself and many others on the forum feel exactly the same way, I don't know anyone who supports TVP exactly as it is now or somehow expects it to magically happen

andyh wrote:
How many times do I have to tell you I do not support the existing system and have an alternative way forward?

sanctumzone.co.uk/forum/Economics--Finan...le-alternatives.html

All you are doing is proposing to change one flawed system that is open to abuse for another flawed system that is even more open to abuse.

@SilvaRizla.

As I pointed out earlier..Anytime the elite see fit they can pull the plug and devalue the currency of the tokens that are 'universally accepted'.
They control the tokens that are 'universally accepted', they control the prices that are paid for real world goods by market manipulation and taxation and the only reason its 'universally accepted' is because its enforced by their armed goon squads (read police and armed forces).

Now you can explain how that isn't slavery and how you don't actually work for Goldman Sachs.

Are you jewish? lol...

andyh wrote:
The people can take control of money by using cooperative systems, like credit unions which are already in place. Money is a far better means of exchanging goods and services than your communist based barter system. Ever read Animal Farm?

Space Bandit wrote:
I'd argue so yes. Not for the monetary system we have now of course. There needs to be a symbol of accepted trade (somebody ditched money and used some sort of money stick in the past, the details are hazy, google it) which is what money is. Without this, as andy has discovered if people won't accept your service as payment you'll starve.

This is how money came about in the first place.

Surely you can see this?

andyh wrote:
Anti-semitism. Nice.

Why are you talking about money. WE don't fucking need monetary system we have now! The only thing we need is work (exchange of goods/service) and a symbol. You've been arguing that work isn't needed, remember?

Its the core thing we do need!

.........
Do you think the amount of people who work are
a/ happy in their jobs (happy wage slaves)
b/ unhappy in their jobs but they are forced to do it because there is little alternative? (wage slaves)

There wouldn't be trade. Nobody need own the land.
All needs are met by the correct use of technology.

Space Bandit wrote:
Will people be happier under your system? What happens if someone wants a good or service from another, but they have nothing to exchange for it?

This now sounds like a plan to have robots take over the world, making people redundant.

Barnfish wrote:
Do you think the amount of people who work are
a/ happy in their jobs (happy wage slaves)
b/ unhappy in their jobs but they are forced to do it because there is little alternative? (wage slaves)

There wouldn't be trade. Nobody need own the land.
All needs are met by the correct use of technology.

SilvaRizla wrote:
So you're arguing that money doesn't create inequality, but just in the system we have now?
ffs!
However money came about isn't relevant. It's had its uses, granted.

People are choosing to work. We always have that choice. The notion of wage slavery is quasi in nature. If people don't like it, they are welcome to purchase a small piece of land, and some minimal tools and crack on not requiring the services of others.

........
SIgh...
Thats your 'solution'?
Use credit unions and building societies that use the same fractional reserve currency?

Sigh...so truly epic and groundbreaking, I'm stunned by the amount of effect its going to have. I'm sure this is going to stop monsanto and goldman sachs in their tracks, I mean this is really going to put the shits up them.