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TOPIC: No-one should ever work! Fuck work!

No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:04 #101

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Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

The monetary system can be boiled down to a symbol for the exchange of human services,

It could be boiled down to that, but it wouldn't be very accurate.
What exactly is being traded by human services when money itself is the largest commodity traded in the market?
Numbers arbitrarily moved around computers by computers.... creating billions of problems for ordinary people while making a tiny few extremely rich. Where is the benefit to society?
Not to mention that over half the world has none to exchange.... which would obviously suggest that it clearly doesn't work.

Bit of a curveball this. Talking in broader concepts of world GDP when relating to a symbol at a fundamental level.

Currency is a symbol. Its a promise of work. What is actually being traded at the top level fundamentally is a nations work rate. Work rate is what you refer to as the largest commodity.

Where is the benefit to society?

I'm happy to get in to it with you, but for you to understand it, we need to start from the ground up. Create a new thread and I'm there.

Numbers being arbitrarily moved around computers is bugger all to do with work rate. The majority of it is simply creating more money out of the fact that it exists in the first place, facilitated by the fact that the rich are able to determine the rules of how money works. (which is for a tiny few, but this is the logical culmination of how a money system works, or doesn't for most people.)
It's all part of the same topic.... how could it not be?

Really? What happens then when "numbers" move around computers?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:04 #102

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SilvaRizla wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
So you think its recommended to divert the core topic for 80 pages before my question gets answered?

I think what I described above.

What is that exactly?

It's above what I posted above. That's why I said "above". :facepalm:
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:07 #103

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mikey mikey wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
Your vision has no checks to prevent people ripping each other off. People with more to trade than others will make those who have nothing to trade work for them, for free. That is slavery.

There's not trade in the resource based economy. See my description above.

c.f. Wage Slavery

lol wut? :killinme:

You aren't even familiar with the term? :chuckle:

Try repeating: I should use my search engine before I scoff at things about which I am ignorant.

Don't be so green. Of course I know the term. What I'm laughing at is your belief that there is no trade in a resource based economy.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:09 #104

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Barnfish wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

The monetary system can be boiled down to a symbol for the exchange of human services,

It could be boiled down to that, but it wouldn't be very accurate.
What exactly is being traded by human services when money itself is the largest commodity traded in the market?
Numbers arbitrarily moved around computers by computers.... creating billions of problems for ordinary people while making a tiny few extremely rich. Where is the benefit to society?
Not to mention that over half the world has none to exchange.... which would obviously suggest that it clearly doesn't work.

In a moneyless system, those with nothing to trade except themselves will become the slaves of those with something to trade. Those who argue for a moneyless system of trade are wanting to replace a system where people can work for a product (money) and then use it for what they wish to one of total control over others and what they can and cannot do. The present system has its flaws and abuses, the suggested system will have that plus an evil trade in people. Bankers will become slave masters. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

It has flaws and abuses ?! No shit! It's actually based on fraud! .
That's not to mention structural abuse which causes social corrosion. Slavery was never abolished btw, it was just made lawful & a function of state.
The society envisaged would not require people to enslave each other, unlike the current one.
The problem is and always would be how to move from this paradigm to that, and it won't happen while people are still fixated with money.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:10 #105

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mikey mikey wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
So you think its recommended to divert the core topic for 80 pages before my question gets answered?

I think what I described above.

What is that exactly?

It's above what I posted above. That's why I said "above". :facepalm:

I specifically asked you, if you thought it necessary to divert this topic for 80 pages before I get an answer.

Wage Slavery, is not an answer to my question. The confusion arose through your inability to correctly hold a conversation.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:11 #106

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SilvaRizla wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

The monetary system can be boiled down to a symbol for the exchange of human services,

It could be boiled down to that, but it wouldn't be very accurate.
What exactly is being traded by human services when money itself is the largest commodity traded in the market?
Numbers arbitrarily moved around computers by computers.... creating billions of problems for ordinary people while making a tiny few extremely rich. Where is the benefit to society?
Not to mention that over half the world has none to exchange.... which would obviously suggest that it clearly doesn't work.

Bit of a curveball this. Talking in broader concepts of world GDP when relating to a symbol at a fundamental level.

Currency is a symbol. Its a promise of work. What is actually being traded at the top level fundamentally is a nations work rate. Work rate is what you refer to as the largest commodity.

Where is the benefit to society?

I'm happy to get in to it with you, but for you to understand it, we need to start from the ground up. Create a new thread and I'm there.

Numbers being arbitrarily moved around computers is bugger all to do with work rate. The majority of it is simply creating more money out of the fact that it exists in the first place, facilitated by the fact that the rich are able to determine the rules of how money works. (which is for a tiny few, but this is the logical culmination of how a money system works, or doesn't for most people.)
It's all part of the same topic.... how could it not be?

Really? What happens then when "numbers" move around computers?

They generate more numbers. Great. Really useful.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:15 #107

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Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

The monetary system can be boiled down to a symbol for the exchange of human services,

It could be boiled down to that, but it wouldn't be very accurate.
What exactly is being traded by human services when money itself is the largest commodity traded in the market?
Numbers arbitrarily moved around computers by computers.... creating billions of problems for ordinary people while making a tiny few extremely rich. Where is the benefit to society?
Not to mention that over half the world has none to exchange.... which would obviously suggest that it clearly doesn't work.

Bit of a curveball this. Talking in broader concepts of world GDP when relating to a symbol at a fundamental level.

Currency is a symbol. Its a promise of work. What is actually being traded at the top level fundamentally is a nations work rate. Work rate is what you refer to as the largest commodity.

Where is the benefit to society?

I'm happy to get in to it with you, but for you to understand it, we need to start from the ground up. Create a new thread and I'm there.

Numbers being arbitrarily moved around computers is bugger all to do with work rate. The majority of it is simply creating more money out of the fact that it exists in the first place, facilitated by the fact that the rich are able to determine the rules of how money works. (which is for a tiny few, but this is the logical culmination of how a money system works, or doesn't for most people.)
It's all part of the same topic.... how could it not be?

Really? What happens then when "numbers" move around computers?

They generate more numbers. Great. Really useful.

A great deal of other things happen when these "numbers" move. Describe them to me please.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:19 #108

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Silva: I stated my opinion on your claim that everything is off topic until your question is answered. Whether you choose to acknowledge that, is not up to me.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:23 #109

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SilvaRizla wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
Shall we leave it up to the OP to decide whether this is on topic or not?

Or do you get to say what is and what is not on topic, no matter how closely related to the thread title and opening post?

I am waiting for a response to a particular point I have raised, that is the topic I'm referring to. (I won't get one though, because andy has legged it). Until my point is addressed I suggest all other matters are off-topic.

lol, I went for my lunch while I waited for someone to come to the realisation that trying to defend the monetary system was futile as it hinged on every single reason why the entire 'truth scene' ever happened in the first place.
Until people address the elephant in the living room then they'll never get anywhere with any of the numerous gripes they have with the 'elite' or whatever they want to call it.
SB's topic is not just about money or work because we no longer technically have money or work, not in the way they used to be defined.
You must first define the parameters of the present system and accept what is wrong with it as is and then propose solutions to it before you can claim any high horse to whine about alternative systems.
Absolutely no-one who supports the present system seems to be aware that there are people who have the ability to create money out of thin air and by doing so inflate the money supply and thereby reduce the value of the money, they're not even aware that the cunts charge interest to 'loan' the money they have out of thin air, like it takes some kind of monumental special effort that only these special guys can do.
Until you are capable of explaining how that is a good system then please don't even try and say how work is a good thing because the reward is those very same fraud tokens. Fraud is slavery.
Until the day that you get paid in land and resources with eminent domain removed from complete title contract then you will remain a slave forever and your children and your childrens children until the end of time.
Is it serious and on topic? Urrr durhh yeah I'd fucking say so...
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:24 #110

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SilvaRizla wrote:
A topic on the monetary system, give the complexity, scale, and intricacy of it is surely worthy of its own thread and outside of the realms of this topic of discussion (no-one should ever work! Fuck work!) wouldn't you agree?

Your reply was Wage Slavery.

Makes perfect sense :roll:
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:27 #111

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SilvaRizla wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

You need it because people like me believe its needed?

No, loads of people do things for each other for payment other than mere money.

What you fail to realise is that as soon as you ask someone to do it for free (not for no money, for absolutely nothing at all), and they tell you to fuck off unless you do X for them, and you agree. YOU HAVE A FUCKING JOB.

Numpty.

:ownd:

C'mon.

Oh good andy. You're back.

Please respond.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:37 #112

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Already have.
The only guys with the money to do such a thing have 32 trillion untaxed in bank accounts in the caymans...which they didn't work 10 minutes for. They took it off us.

Happy about that?
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
Last Edit: 12 Feb 2014 14:38 by andyh.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:41 #113

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andyh wrote:
Already have.
The only guys with the money to do such a thing have 32 trillion untaxed in bank accounts in the caymans...which they didn't work 10 minutes for. They took it off us.

Happy about that?

I don't believe you have.

Are you aware that for someone to do something for you, they likely want something in return?

Are you aware that to have people commit services to you for nothing in return is slavery?
Last Edit: 12 Feb 2014 14:41 by SilvaRizla.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:48 #114

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SilvaRizla wrote:
andyh wrote:
Already have.
The only guys with the money to do such a thing have 32 trillion untaxed in bank accounts in the caymans...which they didn't work 10 minutes for. They took it off us.

Happy about that?

I don't believe you have.

Are you aware that for someone to do something for you, they likely want something in return?

Are you aware that to have people commit services to you for nothing in return is slavery?

Absolutely yes!!

We're getting there now :p

So this 'money' you are given, what value does it actually have if the bank closes or the currency gets hyperinflated?
What if the guys with 32trillion in the caymans knew exactly when to cash in for property and physical goods in advance at best prices and then sit back and watch the shitstorm and pwn everyone all the more afterwards?
Just for their own amusement ofc...
What if they could print as much of it or as little as and when at their total whim without the public having any control over it at all?
What if they could end up owning the planet and control it with a single corporation?
Would that then be slavery?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:50 #115

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mikey mikey wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
Your vision has no checks to prevent people ripping each other off. People with more to trade than others will make those who have nothing to trade work for them, for free. That is slavery.

There's not trade in the resource based economy. See my description above.

c.f. Wage Slavery

There is trade, you just don't want to call it that. Wage slavery is far better than slavery.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:52 #116

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SilvaRizla wrote:
A great deal of other things happen when these "numbers" move. Describe them to me please.

Well that's extremely open ended..... so I'll start with inequality.

Income can be demonstrated to be directly related to life expectancy. Child wellbeing is higher in more equal countries. Studies in the USA show that more children fail at school in unequal areas; Murder rates are higher in unequal areas; people trust each other less in unequal areas; mental illness is more prevalent in unequal societies. The list of problems that inequality causes with these kind of results is absolutely enormous. Not only that but those at the top are able to dictate how much or how little everybody else can have – a good example of that is being able to manipulate the supply or demand for essential goods simply so that a few of the many can have far greater personal 'welfare'. If a rational and sane society were aware of this surely it would seek to make adjustments, no? It cannot, since that wealth accumulates the power and anybody without it has little chance of making any significant change.

The monetary paradigm forces people to compete with each other instead of unify fostering all sorts of divisive social dysfunction such as judgements made based on wealth or class, or opportunities that become available or unavailable due to social and cultural backgrounds, amongst a myriad of other problems that culminate in social corrosion; a huge trigger factor in violent behaviour (which is more prevalent in poor areas) is people feeling looked down upon and disrespected.

Politicians and justice can be bought or sold, and laws are being passed due to the heavy influence of private lobbying groups, who just happen to be really rich. The accumulation of profit is responsible for creating an endless cycle of disposable goods for consumption because goods are not designed to last or take advantage of using the best resources available. This planned obsolescence is simply wasteful of finite resources. The monetary system is prohibitive to accessing resources which occur in a world we share, not hold some legal title to which is purchased by a game of waving pieces of paper about or just transferring numbers around computers in an assumed authority. And of course, the resources that are utilised for profit come at the expense of so much else, such as poisoning the earth with outdated agricultural techniques or growing genetic mutations which are proven to be harmful - all so that companies such as Monsanto can get more and more money, and in the meantime passing their own laws simply because they have the money and power to do so. Is it really in the best interest of the people? I think not. An economy that relies heavily on a finite resource such as oil demonstrates exactly why this system is totally screwed and is doomed to failure. So where are the plans to move on after oil? The world currently consumes several hundred times more barrels of oil per day than it produces, and it has increased exponentially year after year. Profit motivation doesn't look at these things or take any consideration into anything but immediate profit, yet our environment and nutrition are quintessential to our existence. It may well increase personal welfare but only in the short term and then the cycle must repeat. Obviously on a bigger scale the profit motivation is responsible for a number of further rather distasteful activities such as bombing the crap out of people. All in all, a most unpleasant way to structure a society and completely outdated.

The current structure of society that favours the rich in almost every way is responsible for the poor environments in which other people are born into and are socially conditioned by. Loans are granted to poor countries (and much of the rest of the world) which can never conceivably be repaid. This straddles every human being with a debt that they are not responsible for which will continue through generations, and thus minimises labour productivity for personal welfare placing that productivity into the hands of the greedy. As a result, corporations are able to hoover up resources in lieu of payment, inevitably leaving people in those countries with less resources that they have little of anyway.... and let's not forget, this money that was loaned, was simply created out of nothing at all. (see moving numbers around a screen.) Societies without basic resources such as food, water, clothing, and shelter creates human beings that are less capable of functioning both emotionally and physically and is a complete waste of human life, talent, and productivity. Since much of our lives are shaped whilst we are still in the womb, any of these factors can have devastating consequences during the rest of our lives, creating endless cycles of poverty. In the case of humans in the womb, chemical signals sent from the mother to the unborn baby provide information that indicates what sort of world it will be born into. A society with conflict, competition, and where the need to fend for yourself is prevalent will cause stress, and it is never going to produce humans as well as a society based upon mutual reciprocation and co-operation; - this coupled with inequality is structural abuse. These kind of factors concerning our unborn and stress levels in our environments aren't unique to humans; they exist across the animal and plant world too... it is a simple factor of nature itself; essentially, shit in, shit out.

It is actually by design to make life more or less impossible to exist without money. This is why poor people have such drastic lives. Does this paradigm somehow change that for the better or does it make changing that more prohibitive, or does it simply make things worse? Technology is mismanaged and abused with the sole intention of profit. There are numerous ways in which technology could be employed which would change the face of the world for the better, and relieve our reliance on money so much leaving greater leisure time and enhancing our environments while at the same time using resources efficiently and making the highest quality designs to ensure they last. Examples of this could be geothermal energy, evacuated tube transportation or mag lev networks, a fully automated road network, a fully automated food production centre where food is grown naturally using hydroponics or aeroponics in vertical farms. All this would enable distribution to be as efficient as possible, and sadly it's been available to do for a long time but the profit motivation simply does not cater for anything apart from profit because it is nothing but a soulless corporate entity with one mission.

Now if you're going to argue that somehow moving these numbers around a screen is somehow beneficial because it creates GDP or whatever else then it begs the question - is this more important than life itself?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:53 #117

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andyh wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
andyh wrote:
Already have.
The only guys with the money to do such a thing have 32 trillion untaxed in bank accounts in the caymans...which they didn't work 10 minutes for. They took it off us.

Happy about that?

I don't believe you have.

Are you aware that for someone to do something for you, they likely want something in return?

Are you aware that to have people commit services to you for nothing in return is slavery?

Absolutely yes!!

We're getting there now :p

So this 'money' you are given, what value does it actually have if the bank closes or the currency gets hyperinflated?
What if the guys with 32trillion in the caymans knew exactly when to cash in for property and physical goods in advance at best prices and then sit back and watch the shitstorm and pwn everyone all the more afterwards?
Just for their own amusement ofc...
What if they could print as much of it or as little as and when at their total whim without the public having any control over it at all?
What if they could end up owning the planet and control it with a single corporation?
Would that then be slavery?

We aren't getting there at all, so don't get ahead of yourself. I'm more than happy to debate money with you, I'll even do it in this thread if you like. But not yet, as fundamentally it's discussion isn't needed just yet as I haven't finished the groundwork..

Are you aware that one service can be paid with by another service or form of goods eg food?
Are you aware, that a job is the exchange of services or items between people?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:53 #118

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Space Bandit wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

The monetary system can be boiled down to a symbol for the exchange of human services,

It could be boiled down to that, but it wouldn't be very accurate.
What exactly is being traded by human services when money itself is the largest commodity traded in the market?
Numbers arbitrarily moved around computers by computers.... creating billions of problems for ordinary people while making a tiny few extremely rich. Where is the benefit to society?
Not to mention that over half the world has none to exchange.... which would obviously suggest that it clearly doesn't work.

In a moneyless system, those with nothing to trade except themselves will become the slaves of those with something to trade. Those who argue for a moneyless system of trade are wanting to replace a system where people can work for a product (money) and then use it for what they wish to one of total control over others and what they can and cannot do. The present system has its flaws and abuses, the suggested system will have that plus an evil trade in people. Bankers will become slave masters. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

It has flaws and abuses ?! No shit! It's actually based on fraud! .
That's not to mention structural abuse which causes social corrosion. Slavery was never abolished btw, it was just made lawful & a function of state.
The society envisaged would not require people to enslave each other, unlike the current one.
The problem is and always would be how to move from this paradigm to that, and it won't happen while people are still fixated with money.

I have already agreed it is not the best system and told you what is the better way. You have yet to show how in your system people are protected from abuses and evil people and how those with nothing to trade will not end up as slaves.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:58 #119

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Barnfish wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
Your vision has no checks to prevent people ripping each other off. People with more to trade than others will make those who have nothing to trade work for them, for free. That is slavery.

There's not trade in the resource based economy. See my description above.

c.f. Wage Slavery

There is trade, you just don't want to call it that. Wage slavery is far better than slavery.

You trade your own slavery for other people's slavery.
:D
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 14:59 #120

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SilvaRizla wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
Yes it is. You have agreed with everything I have said with the addition of one word: "some".

No, I really haven't, I assure you.

You see, I don't agree with notions that sate that we are all lazy, selfish and need to be put to work.

If I said to my best friend "you' Mum is lazy, selfish and need to be put to work" he'd lamp me.

And he'd be right to do so.

Is that what I've said? No. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

If you don't believe you need a job, why do you have one?

Take what money you have, buy a small amount of land and some minimal tools and crack on. Go and build your dream.
Are you saying the secret is to stop selling your labor to another and producing what you need yourself?
I don't think that's possible these days, as you said in another post, we need each others and money serves as the most universal commodity we can use to trade each others' goods or services.
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What is going on when it comes to 9-11 I…

The EPA (environmental protection agency) and OSHA took air samples in the days following September 11th, they reported that they found no excessive levels of asbestos contrary to other findings....

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9-11 Eleven Years Later

9-11 Eleven Years Later

With the anniversary of September 11th literally just around the corner, unanswered questions still remain for families who lost loved ones during the tragic event, as well as from families...

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Strange Noises, Possible Link to Mass An…

Strange Noises, Possible Link to Mass Animal Deaths

In 2008 the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to review a series of lower court rulings that restrict the United States Navy's use of sonar in submarine detection training exercises off...

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Whether its 50 cents or five dollars, your donations are appreciated and help keep this community site running so we can all continue to enjoy using it.
This target is to meet our server cost for one year, June 2020 - May 2021, in USD.
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