novum wrote: Goldsmith, like his friends Lord Lucan and John Aspinall, believed Britain had been victim of a socialist conspiracy and that communists had infiltrated the Labour party and the media.

Kinda like an early billionaire version of Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh.

Not detracting from your point. Just saying.

He was a bit of a loon.

His wife was Lady Annabel, his son of course is a sitting MP, and his grandchildrens father is likely to be the next president of Pakistan.

Do I bow or curtsey?

diamondgeezer wrote:
I would agree with your second point but your first raises some questions (i.e. national idenity)

Hehe, but not the point i was making.

I tend to listen...

Kinda like an early billionaire version of Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh.

Not detracting from your point. Just saying.

He was a bit of a loon.

1 in 10 British people live abroad.
Should that be allowed?

I'd like the 'right' (freedom) to live wherever I wanted in the world. (within reason)
Am I afforded that freedom? No.
Why not?
Interfering control freaks.
Is it their world or their land?
No.
So what gives them the right to decide on my behalf?
Might.
Is might right?

Pros:

- Beautiful scenery, especially in the centre and north, notably Transylvania and Bucovina.

- Loads of history, especially in Transylvania and Moldavia.

- One of the best ranges of wildlife in Europe, including wild boar, bears, wolves, deer and mountain lion, all roaming free in the more remote areas

- Vast areas of unspoilt natural beauty

- Very friendly people generally, with most under 30s being English speakers (at least a few words)

- Romanians have a strong sense of irony and self-deprecating humour

- Still pretty cheap for services, and certain commodities such as local booze

- Bucharest is OK, with a reasonable amount of things to do

- Nice weather 6 months of the year

Cons:

- Most unpopular government in the country's history, with good reason it would appear (to me as an outsider, anyway)

- Poorly maintained service infrastructure (health, education etc) due to lack of spending

- Road infrastructure is still pretty awful, but improving verrrry slowly

- Still lots of corruption

- Romanians as a people lack self-esteem

- Some people still cling to the communist-era view that money is acquired, not earned

- Goods as expensive as western Europe, while incomes certainly do not match

- Shopping not great but improving slowly

- Summers can get very hot, winters extremely cold for about 8-10 weeks a year

Space Bandit wrote:
I would like that right also.

But its a complicated issue.

If we all could just move anywhere, no doubt we would see populations grow in some places, possibly to unsustainable or problematic levels (in regards to resources and infastructure) , and dwindle in others. And i say that in regards to the current system.

The whole 'system' would have to be overhauled so that freedom of movement did not result in huge sudden changes in population densities.

And 'they' dont want to change their current system, the current system creates inequality, (and war zones) , and they know this, and that is why they know they must control borders.

Thanks Mikey, but to me the cons of Romania are a deal breaker! As you said, people move out of these old Eastern Block countries because of economic reasons. The British, Spanish, French, Swedes, Danes and Germans don't generally go to live in those countries, because they are better off in their native countries.

Space Bandit wrote:
What people are pissed off about is the fact that in many cases the Brits who move abroad have to prove they have jobs to go to, can pay for their own housing, have health insurance or a certain amount of savings. I don't see what's wrong with us expecting the same of people who want to come and live here?

My parents emmigrated to France, they have to have health insurance and they had to have a meeting with the mayor of the village they moved to. There are also other criteria. This is all perfectly normal over there. If I visit them and break my ankle and have to go to the French version of A&E, I still have to pay 25% of the bill, even with my EHIC card, but people come over here and get that for free. In fact, Expats even come back here to have babies. People can be as politically correct as they like, but most people who want to come to the UK aren't doing it on humaitarian grounds, it's mostly about the lifestyle and NHS. I know people spin out the tired old lines about how any of us can go and live in Poland or Romania and work or claim benefits, but lets cut the bullshit. The residents of those countries don't even want to live there and the standard of living is shit, why would any of us want to live there?

No, I don't think the Romanian people or any other nation of people are to blame. That's not what I'm getting at at all. I just think we should tighten up our immigration policy, because of the economic climate. Of course, it's all by design, so that won't happen. They have engineered this all to bring down our standard of living. tbh this does piss me off, but it's understandable really. I want to have disposable income, nice food, a decent job for my son when he finishes eduction and free healthcare. These things are all important to me, it's got nothing to do with disliking people from other countries. It's about looking after what you value.

Thanks Mikey, but to me the cons of Romania are a deal breaker! As you said, people move out of these old Eastern Block countries because of economic reasons. The British, Spanish, French, Swedes, Danes and Germans don't generally go to live in those countries, because they are better off in their native countries.

We should help improve those countries, but not at the detriment of our own. Unfortunately, I don't think the agenda is not to improve those countries. We are being sold a lie, that our standard of living needs to go down to level the playing field, so other people's standard of living can go up. I think the idea is to just bring everyone down, so we all end up fucked.

In theory, we have enough for everyone and people should move freely. The UK mainland is a dirty overcrowded island though, how will we cope with another influx of people I wonder?

We are being sold a lie, that our standard of living needs to go down to level the playing field, so other people's standard of living can go up.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
Actually there is a lie in that lie. There is no reason for ours to go down for theirs to go up. The reason why the rich want you to believe this the lie being told you is that they know that people will fight immigration instead of organising against their ever-decreasing salaries, longer hours and shittier conditions. Provided your banner says "Romanians Go Home" instead of "Higher Wages Lower Bonuses" we will all be collectively fucked and it will keep your non-British fellow workers from supporting us too.

It is no mistake that so many Euro skeptics are fucking LOADED.

LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
Actually there is a lie in that lie. There is no reason for ours to go down for theirs to go up. The reason why the rich want you to believe this the lie being told you is that they know that people will fight immigration instead of organising against their ever-decreasing salaries, longer hours and shittier conditions. Provided your banner says "Romanians Go Home" instead of "Higher Wages Lower Bonuses" we will all be collectively fucked and it will keep your non-British fellow workers from supporting us too.

It is no mistake that so many Euro skeptics are fucking LOADED.