dantesrevival wrote:
I think the point is that any collusion in this crime has been treated as practically equal to carrying out the crime.
I believe that the punishments for the crime are considerably heavier than the punishments for similar crimes (such as murdering people in broad daylight in the streets) that don't get as much media attention.... but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
Care too let me try it? I reckon that just by using the strength in my arm, I could cleave your bonce in two to about half way down your spine....Even if I was running as fast as I can.

dubmeup wrote:
Have to agree with dubs on that.

psketti wrote:
Ok well try this, go and throw a stone, see how far you throw it, then go pick up the same stone, sprint as fast as you can and throw it again whilst sprinting, see how far it went the second time from the position you threw it at...

Anyway besides all that, this Woolwich lad would have, if not shot by police would have run into the car and either bounced off onto the road, or landed on top creating a small dent, he would not be able to create sufficient momentum to cause any damage, of any real impact.

I don't agree because when you're sprinting as fast as you can you won't have hardly any momentum to use your arm strength, as it comes down your body running will be sapping it's power, you'll get at best a clumsy swat, one that likely misses the target and the cleaver follows down to crack your own knee cap...

Whist running a jabbing spear is much better....

He would have needed to have stopped or at least done that small step stuttering thing that humans need to do when they slow down to create momentum for a jump or weight transfer, he didn't do that, so he would have literally run into the car, this is one thing that I have focussed on that makes the whole thing seem unreal, I also don't see why being shot in the leg would have caused him to alter his running path, he would have kept stumbling at his momentum, not go flying off to the left, where he lands close enough to his pal for the police to deal with them in a neat little scene, where they leave Michael Adebajalo lying on the road (possibly armed for all they know) with a leg wound, as all three police turn their back on him, to deal with his pal.

I think it's better to stick to facts BT rather than speculate on the laws of motion.

Surely the fact is his momentum would have caused him to collide with the police car, making any cleaver action non effective.

Ok SB I guess I'm speculating a bit about human performance, if the police would not have 'shot his leg' he would have reached the police car at about15mph and ?

The way I see it, run into/bounced off it, he'd have been far more effective walking briskly and then standing near the car making multiple cleaver strikes at it, than running into it.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
The problem is we've only got statements of what happened & some pictures which isn't really enough to be able to fill in all the intricate detail like that. Not that you're wrong to speculate.

You posit that causing damage with a cleaver, or similar, at a run would be impossible. I own a Staniforth Severquick machete, which seems to have similar characteristics to the weight and construction of the implement you are referring to. I have no doubt that I could strike off a limb, open a persons throat all the way to the spine, or sunder their skull in twain without any problem what so ever, either at a run, or standing still. That stuttering, deceleration that you talk about is not necessary in order to deliver a blow accurately. Correctly judging ones pace so that force can be delivered in an optimal fashion, with minimal alteration in course and speed is all that is required to achieve such a feat, and is not rocket science to accomplish.

The fact is, that at a run, there is increased angular momentum. Speed equals power, in this scenario at any rate, so at a sprint, less effort is required to land a blow, than if striking from a stationary position.

This all sounds so sudo scientific, a bit like 9/11 stuff, or the nuke hoax stuff were people pore over pictures and statements, thing is in extreme situations it all gets a bit crazy and everyone experiences it a bit differently.

From my pov 2 Muslamic fools went out to kill someone from the barracks but fear into the people, regardless of who made em, who landed the killing blow etc they done the deed, i have no issue with the sentences.

I agree if these guys did this they deserve to rot in jail & I'm not particularly bothered about the length of the sentences except that they should be equal to people who carry out similar crimes. It's not justice if they're given longer sentences because of the media fever surrounding the case.
& it's the media involvement in this that makes the whole thing smell a bit funny to me. It was a 'terrorist attack' within minutes of it happening - people are getting murdered all the time in London.... cases where Muslims have been stabbed to death in the street in quasi-racist attacks aren't classed as terrorism.
& then there's a COBRA meeting about it as if these kind of machete wielding events are about to spring up across the country, killing people that could only just be classed as soldiers.... the soldier angle being something the media were very keen to focus on hyping up. (manufacturing a patriot response).

edit:
If there is much more to this case it's unlikely we'll ever get to the bottom of it like everything else. But the media angle on it certainly has 'perception management' written all over it.

TrueBrit wrote:
Thanks for your response, I agree with what you say, within the context that you appear to be saying it ''well timed running blow''.

So you run past an object and cut it using your pace as momentum as you run by..... Yes I see that is quite possible

What I'm referring to is a bit different, what we have is someone running towards, not past a stationary object (parked car) this person is running at it/ onto it, not past it in a well timed joust.

So as the attacker approaches the car, when he gets closer, within arms/cleaver reach, he only has a split second to deliver the blow, he won't be able to use his pace momentum, as the pace is over before the blow is struck when he runs into his target.
His only chance of successfully landing a cleaver blow of any decent impact, would be to stop, as if he was a javelin thrower and from that stop launch his arm/cleaver at the police car, it's impossible for him to launch a successful and decent impact at the car whilst running at it and then into it, without stopping to launch, using momentum as you suggest would mean running past the car and have a swipe as he runs past.

I didn't see him making a 'run past' angle to his run, he was running at the police car, so making a successful cleaver blow with any decent impact if not impossible, is highly unlikely.
.

Blue_Tackler wrote: I see what you are saying...
... but what of the direct assault? When one charges a foe (whether that happens to be a police car, or a person on foot) with the intention of striking them overhand,with a melee weapon of any kind, one can choose to deliver all the forward momentum of the running speed, by clocking the arm back while running, and then releasing all of that power directly forward. This would result in a similar arc being carved into the air, as that which a bowler bowling a cricket ball might make. However, in the case of the melee assault, instead of using that trebuchet action to launch the blade at ones foe, you merely carry that action to its follow through point, throwing all your weight at the freshly stricken target after the blow, ensuring that they are smashed to the ground by either the initial impact, or indeed the collision of your body with their freshly bifurcated face.

In this instance, the only difference would have been that they would have been striking at a window to craze the glass, and deny the occupants of the vehicle a clear line of vision, make them delay their deployment from the vehicle, or alternatively go for a broken window by either the overhand blow, or the subsequent shoulder barge, before slicing up or shooting at, the police officers inside the vehicle. The physics however, are not that much different in the two scenarios.

Bt, i honestly can't believe youa are continuing with this line re the cleaver.
It really is making you look daft.

Average butchers clever is around 4lbs in weight and can be razor sharp , I hope this helps

If a person running/sprinting uses their forward momentum to use a hand projected weapon in an opposing direction then yes I see it....

Basically if someone is running 'north' then they can use this northward energy if they decide to inflict a blow in any other direction.

The issue here is that if they run 'north' and use a weapon 'north' then the have not got an apposing direction to use as a platform.

If someone runs north ( or any direction) and then uses a weapon in a different direction than they are moving, then a force is created to inflict meaning impact, to create impact in the given direction they'd need to stop to create a follow through. javelin thrower style.

It's too obvious to argue, so I'll drop it now.

Edit- In other words, someone draws an arm back to enable a forward blow, and the other body muscles need to be acting in an opposing direction to create the forward blow.

What's too obvious is that you are chattin shit innit blood.
And badly too for some reason.
Why maintain a contention that is so patently bullshit?

BT loves stuff like invisible cars & hologram planes....

I guess it's more fun to live in a world of secret squirrel fictional tech than to live in a world where you know stuff like.........the capabilities of your own arm

Out of all the things you could argue about this case he's picked on the weirdest thing!