SilvaRizla wrote:
About what specifically?

andyh wrote:
About the title of this thread, and your initial belief that nobody needs to work.

andyh wrote:
Does it matter? I think that is just important for everybody to answer his questions, stay on his topic and admit that they were wrong about everything.

SilvaRizla wrote:
I didn't make the title of the thread....

That said, I'm sure the intention is nobody needs to work in a 'JOB' as per my definition above and nobody needs to ever work at something they don't wan't to do.
The video itself doesn't make that claim...if you watched all of it ofc.

andyh wrote:
I know you didn't name the thread, but that's what we're discussing.

Can I point out to you again, that if you ask someone to do something for you for no form of payment whatsoever they are likely to tell you to do one unless you do X for them.

As soon as you agree to do X for them in return, you have a job. A mutually beneficial exchange of goods or service.

Indeed; I shall inform the sexually addicted Marxist editorial staff at the Express

SilvaRizla wrote:
Money !=goods.
Money=debt.

Explain how that is MUTUALLY beneficial, I'll go get my popcorn.

andyh wrote:
Nice try, but that isn't what we're discussing now is it. You are talking about your understanding of the workings of the monetary system as a concept. I'm talking about money as a universally accept symbol of payment.

You said it yourself before. You'd be pretty fucked if you needed a service from someone and they didn't want the service you offer in return. That's the whole reason a universally accepted payment system (money) exists. Because it is mutually accepted and beneficial to all parties. It can be traded in the same way any service or goods can, but it is one that can represent any other service or goods.

SilvaRizla wrote:
You're ignoring that at any time it can no longer be a universally accepted form of payment.

For example, will you accept money on a chip in your arm?

.........


Once you have an English speaking co-op the size of Mondragon then it would probably snowball into a monster that TPTB would have to address.
The gov would probably have to change tax law so that only plc corporations can avoid tax the way its done currently, this would put all sme's and the english mondragon so to speak on the same side together, that kind of power could control a nation state.
If that kind of level is reached then people could be awakened to being shown how the money they had been using to buy mondragon goods and services need not exist as the same goods and services could carry on being provided regardless so long as they worked as per usual with that larger infrastructure in situ.

The only advantage to having money at that point would be for foreign goods/services so you would be focusing on trying to be as self sufficient as possible. Money wouldn't be as much of a contentious issue because the workers would all be earning the same salary and spending it the same way internally anyway. There's a lot of potential angles once it reaches that size but like I said, I would deffo see something drastic happen as TPTB are very scared of the likes of Mondragon. Its the potential that matters more than what it is right now so to speak.

Now as for work, that is never removed, people will always work. Its only a matter of how they work and why. If you work for enjoyment and life enrichment then its definitely not slavery. Many arts and crafts are considered pleasurable to do for example by varying people but it is certainly vital to a functioning society to have arts and crafts just as much as science and engineering which is in turn enjoyable if done by certain types of people doing certain types of life enriching meaningful tasks, types of science and engineering that isn't normally done but you can't get to that stage without first simply participating in the standard economic model.

There's a lot more to this obviously but I'd rather not type out essays on here about it, especially when simply starting one up here is a monumental feat in itself and probably the most difficult aspect of all. So as you can see its about long term vision and a lot of luck on the way with some shrewd planning and determined teamwork.

andyh wrote:
A symbol is a symbol. It doesn't matter what the symbol is, and who has control of it when all we're discussing is the concept of an object being used as a universally accepted form of payment. I made an edit above. Answer my questions please. I am good enough to answer yours.

As far as a money free system , I'd give it a go

I can fix cars and bicycles to a high standard , weld , I know my way about a building site , and I can butcher any livestock

I'd survive

would you ?

andyh wrote:
So for example, after a days work, you go to the shop and take what you need. How would you ensure people only take out a fair amount and put in an honest days work? Your vision would require a lot of policing as many people are not that cooperative.

Personally I'd like to know how its possible to have a freemarket situation with 32 trillion sat in the caymans and taxation only applied to the PAYE workers and most of the worlds wealth and resources sat in the hands of the same people who have that much money in addition to it.

So what you're saying is, if everyone else accepted the chip then you would too right?

andyh wrote:
NOW we're getting there.

Therefore, you must be FULLY aware, that under no circumstance is it feasible to ever stop work (mutual exchange of services) as you claimed before. That was whole basis as to why the idea of ceasing to work is ridiculous, yet you continued to assert it was not.
andyh wrote:
Its a bloody good job then, that we have these pieces of paper called money, that you deem worthless. Its a good job they are a universally accepted form of trade, Isn't it? I'm glad someone thought of that, or you could starve to death.
andyh wrote:
Nobody is talking about fraud, and you were the only person advocating slavery. I'm glad that you can see now, why we do indeed need money.

Thank you and goodnight.

scaltura wrote:
Yes as I would have you slave for me fixing my car, amongst other jobs.