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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 04:00 #541

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psketti wrote:
atwood wrote:

of course I have read the thread, is my question not valid?


It is indeed.

However, my query to yourself was more in line of the questioning you had felt the need to pursue... ie, in regards to what friends should or shouldn't do on forums and my interest in yourself, was in why you wished to keep poking this particular line of query.

Your question implies a level of paranoia about my intentions.

There is no need, I find the issue interesting, that's all.

Personally, if I knew there was no risk to myself I would allow people to post as they wish, that is why I am researching the threat and up to yet it would seem there is no risk to forum owners and the self censorship is purely a fearful reaction to a perceived threat that actually isn't there, Like I said before, this is a huge lesson in life about knowing our rights and how we behave.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 04:03 #542

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andyh wrote:
atwood wrote:
psketti wrote:
atwood wrote:

I just don't understand the danger to the owner of the forum.


It's been stated clearly throughout this thread that it's more than just the libel issuse that may arise and if you'd read the thread you would know this.

So on that basis I have to ask, do you have a specific reason that keeps bringing you back to poke at this particular subject?

of course I have read the thread, is my question not valid?

If no forum owner has ever been prosecuted for content posted on said forum, why the need for censorship?

No need to take my question so personal, surely it is a question that is valid for all forums and life in general? Does the threat of punishment stop us acting in ways we wish, also it makes it imperative that we know our rights.

Because certain people are watching this forum like hawks for the slightest chance they can get.
Subtle hint- DIF.

So the decision is made out of fear, right?

My point is that if it was known there was no threat, then the posts would be allowed.

Hence knowing your rights Is always a good thing.
Last Edit: 09 Feb 2014 04:25 by atwood.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 04:28 #543

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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 04:33 #544

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That about sums it up for me too at the moment :psketti:
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 04:35 #545

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@atwood... sorry but I can't be fucked entertaining the 'paranoia' and 'fear' parts in what's left of this evening, so the best I can do is tomorrow sometime.

That ok for you?
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 04:39 #546

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psketti wrote:
@atwood... sorry but I can't be fucked entertaining the 'paranoia' and 'fear' parts in what's left of this evening, so the best I can do is tomorrow sometime.

That ok for you?

Of course.

It's 1240 here in Malaysia and 32 degrees, enjoy your evening :)
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 07:57 #547

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(3) Websites and "publication"

A defamatory statement is not actionable unless it is published. Unfortunately for webmasters, when libel lawyers say "published", they mean communicated to one person (not including the person defamed). You can libel someone by writing about them on a personal blog, providing at least one person accesses the defamatory material.

That is not to say that a defamatory publication on your personal blog carries the same risk as a defamatory publication on, say, the BBC website. Libels on high-traffic sites are more likely to be discovered by the person attacked than libels on low-traffic sites. Also, potential libel claimants may let a libel pass if it hasn't been widely disseminated - knowing that a court case would itself ensure the widest possible audience for the slur.
www.seqlegal.com/blog/10-things-you-should-know-about-libel

Stratton Oakmont vs. Prodigy (1995)

After having relieved much of the responsiblity of a network service provider in regards to liability, one might have expected a similar judgment to have been passed in the case of Stratton Oakmont v. Prodigy. Again, an instance of libelous remarks over a public on-line forum triggered a company to sue a network service provider. On a widely read financial matters forum called "Money Talk," a Prodigy user had posted about Daniel Porush, the president of Stratton Oakmont, a investement securities firm, and his employees. Porush, the poster claimed, was "soon to proven criminal," and further, Stratton Oakmont, Inc., was a "cult of brokers who either lie for a living or get fired." After reading this posting on Prodigy, Porush filed suit against the network service claiming Prodigy liable for this poster's libelous claims. Prodigy, on its legal behalf, claimed the status of a distributor (as in the case of Cubby vs. CompuServe). However, Stratton Oakmont argued that due to Prodigy's editorial control over content, Prodigy should be more correctly classified as a publisher. In essence, this is because Prodigy made clear to all users that it retained the right to edit, remove, and filter messages in its system in order to ensure a "family" atmosphere on-line. Because of these claims, the court classified Prodigy as a publisher and awarded damages to Stratton Oakmont.

www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~eroberts/cs...precedent/cases.html

On the Internet, where abnormal behavior is the status quo, tempers
can flare in the heat of debate and word wars can last for days or
even weeks. It's not uncommon for users to ridicule, harass or insult
those who disagree with them.

But if you damage someone's reputation by trying to embarrass them in
a public forum, you could be sued for libel or defamation. After all,
there's no reason to assume that the messages you send through
cyberspace are immune from lawsuits.

"The Internet culture right now is for users to refute speech with
speech," says Dave Marburger, the attorney who represented Brock Meeks
in one of the first defamation lawsuits in the United States involving
the Internet. "But as the Internet culture gets more diverse, users
will start refuting speech with lawsuits."

There have only been a handful of libel and defamation lawsuits filed
involving the Internet so far, but as the Net grows, the number of
lawsuits will probably increase. If the few court battles that have
been decided involving libel and defamation on the Net are any
indication of how the law will be applied to the Internet in the
future, it's worth your time to learn what's libelous or defamatory on
the Internet and what's not.

Other users have the right to sue you for defamation if they can prove
you damaged their reputation or good name with false information. You
can be sued for libel if another user can prove you have distributed
defamatory statements about them in a public area -- such as a news
group or mailing list.......... www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/defamation-in-cyberspace.html

Is truth a defense to defamation claims?

Yes. Truth is an absolute defense to a defamation claim. But keep in mind that the truth may be difficult and expensive to prove.
www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation

(And as previously posted)
Defamation

In a nutshell, defamation relates to the making of untrue derogatory public comments, which are damaging to an individual or organisation.

The two most common forms of defamation are held to be slander and libel, but a general accusation of defamation in itself is a serious matter.

In the USA, webmasters may be protected on the issue of publishing defamatory comments by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This means that the poster – not webmaster – may be legally responsible for the comments made.

However, in the UK, the law will hold the publisher liable as well. And unlike most English laws, an act of defamation is presumed to be false, unless it can be proven otherwise. www.internetbusiness.co.uk/2005/12/23/le...ities-of-webmasters/
:scotty:
This is where my bottom line would be if it existed.
Last Edit: 09 Feb 2014 08:31 by Blue_Tackler.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 09:55 #548

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davedavedave wrote:
Our servers are in the US, majority of members are in the UK, 'webmaster' in Greece, which countries laws apply?

10.0.1 Governing law & jurisdiction

This agreement is governed by English law and the parties agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts.
from the Sanctum Zone Terms of Service.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 10:10 #549

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Atwood, if there are laws in place (which there are) it makes no sense to imply we should just break them because we're not aware of others having been penalised for breaking them. It's not a question of 'fear', and that's an emotive argument you're presenting. The common sense stance is that you avoid the risk as far as possible, and don't tempt providence.

The points raised in the thread regarding other aspects of this particular issue - morality of naming people who may be innocent, victims & their families who may be negatively affected - just reinforce the decision to exercise caution..

People have already noted that a number of big, thriving forums have been closed down overnight. That also seems like a good reason not to be blase.

Here's an example of a youngster being hammered just for posting extremely bad taste jokes on the internet. I'd never heard of that happening before, but it didn't stop it happening on this occasion.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2214652...ing-April-Jones.html

I don't know how you've come to the conclusion that, "There is no threat", "There is no risk", when there's plenty of information here regarding laws pertaining to these scenarios, that tell you there is a threat / risk.

If you just want to research out of interest, then there's plenty of stuff about it you can Google to get your teeth into. If, after doing that, you still believe there to be no risk, then there's nothing stopping you from doing as you mentioned, and setting up your own forum that allows people to post anything at all.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 12:19 #550

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mikey mikey wrote:
Whether or not a forum owner has been arrested is not really the point.

One should not take risks with another person's legal ramifications.

Especially when one has been explicitly asked not to.

That is how I see it, at least.

andyh wrote:
atwood wrote:
psketti wrote:
atwood wrote:

I just don't understand the danger to the owner of the forum.


It's been stated clearly throughout this thread that it's more than just the libel issuse that may arise and if you'd read the thread you would know this.

So on that basis I have to ask, do you have a specific reason that keeps bringing you back to poke at this particular subject?

of course I have read the thread, is my question not valid?

If no forum owner has ever been prosecuted for content posted on said forum, why the need for censorship?

No need to take my question so personal, surely it is a question that is valid for all forums and life in general? Does the threat of punishment stop us acting in ways we wish, also it makes it imperative that we know our rights.

Because certain people are watching this forum like hawks for the slightest chance they can get.
Subtle hint- DIF.

I find it funny as fuck that in one breath your all anarchists wanting to fuck the system, then next breath I must conform :killinme:

As for the DI forum doing a dub and grassing you up, I think they are on slippery ground with the shit they post on that site :coffee:

As to sites being shut by the authorities, lol, yep a major threat SZ is :axe: The viewing figures number in the millions :band:
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 13:02 #551

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WTF is conforming about getting a friend into legal problems?
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 14:59 #552

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
I find it funny as fuck that in one breath your all anarchists wanting to fuck the system, then next breath I must conform :killinme:

As for the DI forum doing a dub and grassing you up, I think they are on slippery ground with the shit they post on that site :coffee:

As to sites being shut by the authorities, lol, yep a major threat SZ is :axe: The viewing figures number in the millions :band:

What a moronic response, Ent. :devilgirl:

1). Who said we're all anarchists? You've never heard me give myself that or any other label, so stop making things up. It's naughty.

2). If you don't conform to these particular laws, you risk losing the forum. We'd rather not lose the forum. So even if we disapproved of the regulations, we'd potentially be doing our own community harm by rebelling. Since many have voiced concern for third parties possibly being affected by unsubstantiated claims, it's rational to state that we approve. So why would we wish to rebel? Make sense will you?

3). Stop being an arse re Dub - you're boring.

4). If someone from DIF, eg. Wilderbeest, spotted an opportunity to lodge an official complaint, what makes you deduce that she'd do so in the name of DIF? DIF would have no relevance to any such action, and wouldn't enter into the equation, so there'd be no case for counter-claiming.

5). Size of forum membership / viewing figures have nothing to do with it. If you're seen to fall foul of regulations, they can quickly put you out of action.

If you 're going to contribute, learn to comprehend FFS! :bat:
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
Last Edit: 09 Feb 2014 15:31 by Gilly.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 15:27 #553

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Cheers people for covering, in a far more eloquent way, what I decided not to say last night in response to atwood and the paranoia and fear digs.

I've came to my own conclusion that atwoods purely trying to stir up shit and that these well answered posts in response to him, aren't worth anyones time nor effort.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 15:29 #554

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:

I find it funny as fuck that in one breath your all anarchists wanting to fuck the system, then next breath I must conform :killinme:

As for the DI forum doing a dub and grassing you up, I think they are on slippery ground with the shit they post on that site :coffee:

As to sites being shut by the authorities, lol, yep a major threat SZ is :axe: The viewing figures number in the millions :band:

:facepalm:
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 15:32 #555

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Gilly wrote:
If you 're going to contribute, learn to comprehend FFS! :bat:
I think it’s a bit late in the day for that! That would have needed to happen about 45 years ago.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 15:58 #556

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Taken from blue tackler first link:

(7) Liability of hosts

Website hosts may be liable for defamatory material created by someone else but which they host. However, there are special defences available to hosts under the Defamation Act 1996 and the E-commerce Regulations.

Under the Defamation Act 1996, a website host will have a defence to a claim for libel if he can show that (i) he was not the author, editor or publisher of the statement complained of, (ii) he took reasonable care in relation to its publication, and (iii) he did not know and had no reason to believe that what he did caused or contributed to the publication of the defamatory statement. The defence under the E-commerce Regulations is broader in that it covers not just defamation but also other kind of legal action; however it is shallower in that it does not provide a complete defence, but merely a defence against financial and criminal penalties.

It would seem, considering all the info shown that the risk to web masters is minimal but I agree it is prudent to not allow it if at all possible. .

It would give give somebody who wanted to be malicious a way of hurting a forum wouldn't it? All it would take is somebody to post something defamatory and screen shot it. That is another reason why I think prosecution of Web masters wouldn't happen.

It is also surprising to me that Americans have more protection against accusations of defamation than England's system.

Psketti I said it was paranoia questioning my motive, I still think it is as you have questioned me again, I am just discussing a topic, absolutely no "shit stirring" on my part. Also the fear statement isn't meant as an insult, it's just a fact, decisions have been made out of fear of repercussions, that's correct isn't it?
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 16:03 #557

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Decisions were made out of common sense.
"Like a lotus flower that grows out of the mud and blossoms above the muddy water surface,
we can rise above our defilements and sufferings of life" - Buddhist Value
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 16:08 #558

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atwood wrote:

Psketti I said it was paranoia questioning my motive, I still think it is as you have questioned me again, I am just discussing a topic, absolutely no "shit stirring" on my part. Also the fear statement isn't meant as an insult, it's just a fact, decisions have been made out of fear of repercussions, that's correct isn't it?


No it isn't.

The decisions were made out of pure common sense and the fact that its a small forum and if we'd opened a sub-forum on this subject, it likely would have had the faciliatators running about 24/7 cleaning up speculative crap most of the time, if the savile thread over on DI is anything to go on.

And personally, I dont believe you're not trying to shit stir and I've been doing this long enough now to trust my nose when I smell it.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 16:15 #559

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psketti wrote:
atwood wrote:

Psketti I said it was paranoia questioning my motive, I still think it is as you have questioned me again, I am just discussing a topic, absolutely no "shit stirring" on my part. Also the fear statement isn't meant as an insult, it's just a fact, decisions have been made out of fear of repercussions, that's correct isn't it?


No it isn't.

The decisions were made out of pure common sense and the fact that its a small forum and if we'd opened a sub-forum on this subject, it likely would have had the faciliatators running about 24/7 cleaning up speculative crap most of the time, if the savile thread over on DI is anything to go on.

And personally, I dont believe you're not trying to shit stir and I've been doing this long enough now to trust my nose when I smell it.

I agree, it is easier all around for the admin just stop it.

Like somebody pointed out earlier there are other forums out there if people wish to post their stories.

listen, all I am doing is discussing a topic, if you class that as shit stirring then so be it.
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To all members... 09 Feb 2014 16:17 #560

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marina wrote:
Decisions were made out of common sense.

Yes and they were also made over fear of repercussions.

Nothing wrong with that.
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