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TOPIC: No-one should ever work! Fuck work!

No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 17:34 #381

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dubmeup wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
To say that goods and services cant be exchanged to maintain standard of living without payment is a logical fallacy.

I'll toss a couple of words out there that prove the fallaciousness.

Gift

Favour

A favour is often the first step in an exchange in service. If you don't return favours, you won't get far.

But in an rbe everyone is essentially doing favours for everyone. Perhaps in the form of work.
But no cash need exist or change hands. It really is sime once you 'get it'.
Mindblowingly hard and complicated when you don't.

Precisely my point, one which this video overlooks by claiming that work isn't needed. You cannot take without giving.

Our current economic system, nor an rbe, isn't hard for me to grasp at all. I dropped out of economic study after two and a half years (having fully understood it) because it is based on the notion that the 1% redistribute their wealth to the bottom 1% at a fair rate. This isn't the case, although many of my (all of them actually) peers couldn't see it.

Using the term rbe (even in the respect that you mean) is incredibly misleading, as resources are finite and their value will increase in line with their scarcity. Like I say, we currently have a rbe anyway. The greatest problem there is, I have yet to see be addressed by any proposed replacement. This problem is greed. It cannot be accurately factored in to a mathematical or probability based system such as any form of banking we've come up with thus far. There needs to be more forceful checks to prevent greed. I suggest monthly taxation on bank accounts at a rate tied to GDP.

Whether this will work I don't know, but for any new system to work it needs to address greed, keep money in our economy (we need to manufacture again and become more self reliant) and we need to balance import and export.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 17:46 #382

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andyh wrote:

The video does not intend that people don't work, rather it was about positive work which is a completely different thing.
At the moment our energies are wasted.
Its a bit like the regulation of the monetary system and taxation that people expect to work.
It won't.

Systems simplification is the only thing that has ever worked and de-regulation rather than regulation.
Laws etc are fine on paper, some people just don't give a shit and they never will, so you simplify and remove the possibility of dicking with it in the first place and stick with it...but thats all politicians can ever do, its their reason d'etre isn't it? Doesn't matter if they are liberal or conservative the aim is to dick with shit, a death spiral of fucking with things in a futile effort to achieve perfection.

Whats worse is you have half the global GDP offshore and thats going to require global intervention by people who run the system to police themselves. I would suggest...that's not going to happen lol :)
Gold/silver won't happen for the same reason, nor will Mondragon because it'll take too long and too much effort and money.

Call me cynical (which I'll freely admit I am) but a disaster is probably the best thing that can happen because only then will something actually get done about it.

Positive work is just a mindset, the video didn't even acknowledge that workers actually get paid. That's not to say that the payment received is fair, but more that the video's representation of the situation is incredibly inaccurate.

If you don't regulate the system, there is absolutely no point in having one. That's the problem we have now, it isn't regulated enough and look at the state of it.

Simplification is not the answer. This will lead to stagnation and eventually a bust economy and starvation. That is why fractional-reserve banking was conceived. The idea behind having a non-profit open board will hopefully stop people dicking about with monetary law.

I agree with the rest of what you've said. We need to balance GDP, import and export. That's the bit I don't know how to do, but it needs to happen. If we don't keep hold of our own money and it gets sucked out, we crash. There needs to be an incentive to bring business back home, but I don't know what it is.

The effect of all of this will change work mindset away from wage-slavery (which is quasi anyway), its the lack of balance that creates this mindset.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 17:52 #383

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I'm gonna ditch the rbe phrase for the mo, silva. It doesn't really describe what i mean.

Here's a question that may help describe what i am on about.
If money disappeared today, would we still have all the resources that earth has to offer us or would they be gone too?
"laws are unenforceable if the majority break them."-humanspirit,
"avoid the concept of an ambassador for truth altogether"-gilly.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 17:55 #384

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dubmeup wrote:
I'm gonna ditch the rbe phrase for the mo, silva. It doesn't really describe what i mean.

Here's a question that may help describe what i am on about.
If money disappeared today, would we still have all the resources that earth has to offer us or would they be gone too?

I think things would become more responcible , as people would be taking care of their elders etc , life defo would change for the better in long run
Thorn in your side
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 17:55 #385

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SilvaRizla wrote:
andyh wrote:

The video does not intend that people don't work, rather it was about positive work which is a completely different thing.
At the moment our energies are wasted.
Its a bit like the regulation of the monetary system and taxation that people expect to work.
It won't.

Systems simplification is the only thing that has ever worked and de-regulation rather than regulation.
Laws etc are fine on paper, some people just don't give a shit and they never will, so you simplify and remove the possibility of dicking with it in the first place and stick with it...but thats all politicians can ever do, its their reason d'etre isn't it? Doesn't matter if they are liberal or conservative the aim is to dick with shit, a death spiral of fucking with things in a futile effort to achieve perfection.

Whats worse is you have half the global GDP offshore and thats going to require global intervention by people who run the system to police themselves. I would suggest...that's not going to happen lol :)
Gold/silver won't happen for the same reason, nor will Mondragon because it'll take too long and too much effort and money.

Call me cynical (which I'll freely admit I am) but a disaster is probably the best thing that can happen because only then will something actually get done about it.

Positive work is just a mindset, the video didn't even acknowledge that workers actually get paid. That's not to say that the payment received is fair, but more that the video's representation of the situation is incredibly inaccurate.

If you don't regulate the system, there is absolutely no point in having one. That's the problem we have now, it isn't regulated enough and look at the state of it.

Simplification is not the answer. This will lead to stagnation and eventually a bust economy and starvation. That is why fractional-reserve banking was conceived. The idea behind having a non-profit open board will hopefully stop people dicking about with monetary law.

I agree with the rest of what you've said. We need to balance GDP, import and export. That's the bit I don't know how to do, but it needs to happen. If we don't keep hold of our own money and it gets sucked out, we crash. There needs to be an incentive to bring business back home, but I don't know what it is.

The effect of all of this will change work mindset away from wage-slavery (which is quasi anyway), its the lack of balance that creates this mindset.

I don't get why some people think that the solution will come from yet more regulation.
Nor do I understand why the people involved in regulating things are going to do it, given that their profit motivation is telling them to do what they are told by the people who are still amassing the money.

The only laws people obey perfectly are the laws of physics.

100% digital money is merely the inevitable result of regulation, everyone knows this. The excuse is that gov will be able to track and tax every single person and transaction 'perfectly'.
Who's to say they won't still leave loopholes in place?
How will we even know how much money is in 'circulation' when it goes digital?

And yes I'd rather not have an authoritarian system at all, that would be very nice ;)
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 18:02 #386

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dubmeup wrote:
I'm gonna ditch the rbe phrase for the mo, silva. It doesn't really describe what i mean.

Here's a question that may help describe what i am on about.
If money disappeared today, would we still have all the resources that earth has to offer us or would they be gone too?

No. Please continue your thought process
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:09 #387

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andyh wrote:
[

I don't get why some people think that the solution will come from yet more regulation.
Nor do I understand why the people involved in regulating things are going to do it, given that their profit motivation is telling them to do what they are told by the people who are still amassing the money.

I'd be quite happy to explain it tomorrow if you're interested? We would have to go through the entire system from creation though, its quite intense, though I'm happy to do it. If you're up for it, I'll create a thread on it tomorrow morning and outline the key concepts, and problems. It is being increasingly perpetuated that money creation is merely debt/slavery/servitude and the fractional reserve system isn't needed. This isn't actually the case. Granted, money is created with interest by the central bank in exchange for bonds, but the interest is needed. ;)
andyh wrote:
The only laws people obey perfectly are the laws of physics.

Law wasn't the right word, my bad. For the system to function correctly, money needs to be created, destroyed, circulated, and repaid at precise times. There are rules that need to be obeyd when doing this to promote stability. A major problem we have, is that those in charge where not playing by these rules because it suited their agendas in other matters.
andyh wrote:
100% digital money is merely the inevitable result of regulation, everyone knows this. The excuse is that gov will be able to track and tax every single person and transaction 'perfectly'.
Who's to say they won't still leave loopholes in place?
How will we even know how much money is in 'circulation' when it goes digital?

And yes I'd rather not have an authoritarian system at all, that would be very nice ;)

Digital money isn't really a result of regulation, physical fraud is factored in as is so there isn't a need for %100 digital. Digital money benefits commercial banks and the shadow banking sector as they can create money with it. They wouldn't exist in my proposed replacement. There should be a balance between freedom and potential for fraud. The new system would need to be regulated to prevent fraud, to prevent people printing, stealing, not playing by the rules. The idea behind a vote-in vote-out board, is to prevent dodgy people taking charge, to prevent loop-holes. All of this will ensure it functions as its supposed to. Think of regulation, especially new regulations as software patches for the system, that prevent hackers from being able to control the software and direct it to do something it isn't supposed to.

What's to say we know how much money is in circulation now? ;) The problem isn't really how much money is in circulation, more how much of it is circulating. How much is a £5 note worth? It can be used for 100 transactions, so it can be worth £500 (this is why it doesn't matter that there isn't enough printed money to pay back all the debt. Its value is worth more than what is printed on the front - another perpetual myth). How much is £5 worth if its sat in someone's bank for 2 years going nowhere? Its worth fuck all, and its effectivley took £500 out of the collective pocket ;)

That's why we need to prevent hoarding. If a corporation amasses millions and sits on it, its worthless, and it just makes money more scarce.

If this peaks your interest, I'll gladly get in to it tomorrow. Won't be long before I call it a day
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:16 #388

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Barnfish wrote:
John_UK22 wrote:
.....

Thanks for posting this andyh. The irony of brainwashed slaves arguing passionately for the very system that is abusing and enslaving them would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Many avoided this so called slavery by not sticking their snouts in the cheap loans trough and maintaining financial independence by using the remaining regulated financial system.

To call what has happened slavery is an insult to those truly enslaved.

Whether or not it's worse or not than previous forms of slavery isn't relevant to whether it's still slavery or not.
“The transition from chattel to wage slavery was effected in the British Caribbean by restructuring colonial labour laws.(1)
The process began in 1823;
under pressure from abolitionists inside and outside parliament and with support from the West India lobby, the imperial government made an unprecedented attempt to alter existing owner and slave laws and prepare the slaves for freedom.
It marked the seriousness of its intention by promising slave owners £20 million compensation for their property losses when abolition finally took place. Dismantling the slave laws, in the event, took fifteen years:
between 1823 and 1833 laws were framed to prepare the slaves for the "civil rights and privileges" of other classes of His Majesty's subjects (2) and from 1833 to 1838 when the slave status was abolished and a master/apprentice system was substituted as a preliminary to wage work.”

1. An early version of this paper was presented at the "Master and Servant in History" Conference at York
University, Toronto in 1996.
2. Public Record Office (PRO), London, Colonial Office (CO) 854/1, Circular Despatch, Bathurst to
the Governor of Jamaica, May 28, 1823.
Mary
Turner, Institute of Commonwealth Studies, School of Advanced Studies, University of London
Modernizing Slavery: Investigating the Legal Dimension
Wage slavery refers to a situation where a person's livelihood depends on wages, especially when the dependence is total and immediate. e.g.
working for a wage not only under threat of starvation or poverty, but also of social stigma or status diminution.
Wikipedia
Karl Marx described Capitalist society as infringing on individual autonomy, by basing it on a materialistic and commodified concept of the body and its liberty (i.e. as something that is sold, rented or alienated in a class society).
“The slave is sold once and for all; the proletarian must sell himself daily and hourly. The individual slave, property of one master, is assured an existence, however miserable it may be, because of the master's interest.
The individual proletarian, property as it were of the entire bourgeois class which buys his labour only when someone has need of it, has no secure existence.”
“Wage slavery is the same as chattel slavery. There is no difference between selling yourself and renting yourself ...”
Noam
Chomsky
The connection between chattel slavery and wage slavery as alternative modes of exploitation is visible in the debates within the British and American ruling class that led up to the abolition of chattel slavery.
While religious abolitionists condemned slave holding as a moral sin, the clinching argument against chattel slavery was that it was no longer the most effective way of exploiting the labouring population. It was abandoned because it was impeding economic and especially industrial development – that is, the accumulation of capital.
SPGB
Many of his friends who then heard him would remember that, during the various discussions upon the abolition of the Slave­trade, it was constantly urged, both in that House and out of it, that no substantial benefit could be obtained, unless measures were devised to introduce
those moral regulations with respect to the treatment of the slaves, which might secure a supply of slaves without looking to the slave­market for that supply.

Mr Wilberforce,
House of Commons
13 June 1815 Hansard Vol 31
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Last Edit: 13 Feb 2014 19:18 by Space Bandit.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:20 #389

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I wouldn't argue you with about your idea of whats right/wrong. Distributism is a great idea IMHO.

What I'm arguing is that its not going to be your version of what's right/wrong that will get implemented unless you're willing to go out and kill some people to implement it.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:23 #390

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andyh wrote:
I wouldn't argue you with about your idea of whats right/wrong. Distributism is a great idea IMHO.

What I'm arguing is that its not going to be your version of what's right/wrong that will get implemented unless you're willing to go out and kill some people to implement it.

Can't argue with that, but the more people get together and figure out what needs to be done, the greater the chance of the right thing being done when the time comes :thumbup:
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:25 #391

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Space Bandit wrote:
Whether or not it's worse or not than previous forms of slavery isn't relevant to whether it's still slavery or not.

It isn't slavery in the first place.

That's like having a one night stand you feel guilty about so say that you've been raped instead. :roll:
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:37 #392

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SilvaRizla wrote:

Precisely my point, one which this video overlooks by claiming that work isn't needed. You cannot take without giving.

For the 2nd & last time, the video is a philosophical look at how work is detrimental to our well being as well as various other things such as the environment, but at no point does it suggest that it just stop without working to an alternative - which should be the goal, rather than doing the same thing over and over again when it clearly doesn't work. (insanity) You've made consistent strawmans about it throughout the thread. The video is from TVPs page & therefore should give you an indication of its intent.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:40 #393

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Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

Precisely my point, one which this video overlooks by claiming that work isn't needed. You cannot take without giving.

For the 2nd & last time, the video is a philosophical look at how work is detrimental to our well being as well as various other things such as the environment, but at no point does it suggest that it just stop without working to an alternative - which should be the goal, rather than doing the same thing over and over again when it clearly doesn't work. (insanity) You've made consistent strawmans about it throughout the thread. The video is from TVPs page & therefore should give you an indication of its intent.


That makes sense :roll:

So. You're saying I've taken this a bit too seriously?

I'll give you that :D
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:44 #394

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SilvaRizla wrote:
andyh wrote:
I wouldn't argue you with about your idea of whats right/wrong. Distributism is a great idea IMHO.

What I'm arguing is that its not going to be your version of what's right/wrong that will get implemented unless you're willing to go out and kill some people to implement it.

Can't argue with that, but the more people get together and figure out what needs to be done, the greater the chance of the right thing being done when the time comes :thumbup:

Not everyone is going to agree over what is right/wrong, thats the whole point.
As for when the time comes, any collapse will be engineered towards 100% digital by men behind closed doors with armed guards.
Not by us.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:55 #395

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SilvaRizla wrote:
It isn't slavery in the first place.

That's not what was mentioned in the house of commons, is it? :roll: Nevermind..... ignore that.
The slave trade was abolished by making it global in a 'free market'. Immigration for example now is basically internal asset redistribution.
Political & social changes saw slavery become lawful & a function of state. The transition from chatel to wage slaves allowed for greater capital accumulation with lower costs & lower overheads, and meaning costs accrued by labour could be determined on an ad hoc basis.


That's like having a one night stand you feel guilty about so say that you've been raped instead. :roll:

Not only is it fuck all like that, that's just odd.
:conf:
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Last Edit: 13 Feb 2014 19:57 by Space Bandit.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 19:57 #396

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SilvaRizla wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
I'm gonna ditch the rbe phrase for the mo, silva. It doesn't really describe what i mean.

Here's a question that may help describe what i am on about.
If money disappeared today, would we still have all the resources that earth has to offer us or would they be gone too?

No. Please continue your thought process
Ok. So all the stuff we need exists without the need of money. What money does is introduce the concept of artificial scarcity.
It separates us from the true potential of the resources the Earth and the Sun provide. It breaks the direct connection to natural abundance.
It puts a block in the way of scientific, technological and medicinal research. All the resources to do those things are already here. High financial cost stops a lot of it happening.
The artificial scarcity causes other effects. It engenders doing things the 'cheapest' way possible rather than the best. Cue pollution, intensive agriculture, sweat shops.....
It invokes survival instinct to the point that people will literally stab others in the back to get more of it. It inevitably leads to haves and have nots.
I could and may, go on ;)

These things are pretty much inarguable.

Still with me?

If we removed money, shit would still need to get done. Perhaps technology might end up doing a lot of it but once the basics were taken care of, humanity could aim itself toward literally infinite potential. Nearly all the causes of strife would be gone. Everyone would be able to have what they needed, for free. Just by virtue of being a member of a grown up species where the individual understands their direct connection to the whole.
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Last Edit: 13 Feb 2014 20:12 by dubmeup.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 20:00 #397

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SilvaRizla wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

Precisely my point, one which this video overlooks by claiming that work isn't needed. You cannot take without giving.

For the 2nd & last time, the video is a philosophical look at how work is detrimental to our well being as well as various other things such as the environment, but at no point does it suggest that it just stop without working to an alternative - which should be the goal, rather than doing the same thing over and over again when it clearly doesn't work. (insanity) You've made consistent strawmans about it throughout the thread. The video is from TVPs page & therefore should give you an indication of its intent.


That makes sense :roll:

So. You're saying I've taken this a bit too seriously?

I'll give you that :D

I'm saying you've taken it out of context.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 20:09 #398

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Sorry to interject, and sorry I've not been able to contribute more to the thread, but this has developed into a decent exchange now the sock/troll has gone. Just saying how one wum in the mix can affect all exchanges.

That is all.

:carryon:
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 20:10 #399

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oioioi wrote:
Sorry to interject, and sorry I've not been able to contribute more to the thread, but this has developed into a decent exchange now the sock/troll has gone. Just saying how one wum in the mix can affect all exchanges.

That is all.

:carryon:

lol, just wait a bit :)
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 13 Feb 2014 22:56 #400

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Barnfish wrote:
I AM ALL I AM wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
... Wage slavery is far better than slavery.

G'day Barnfish.

I would appreciate if you clarify this for me ...

Are you stating that one form of slavery "is far better" than another form of slavery?

... Chains of gold are still chains.

Wage slavery is a contradiction in terms and is used by those who want to drop out or are not materialistic to have a dig at people in the rat race who live in spam valley. The thing is that many in the rat race do it only for a certain period of time and there is light at the end of the tunnel for them. Many young to middle aged people work in the rat race and live in spam valley for the time it takes to pay off debts and then have a disposable income and they can start to relax and enjoy life more. Plus, whilst there may be bad parts to their working life such as a huge commute, such is balanced by living in a lovely village away from the city. Plus if one employer is crap, they cam move on. Or if one business fails, they can start again.

Meanwhile slaves live in abject poverty, are demoralised, often brutalised, ruled over, treated like scum and have no future. So yes the fictitious contradictory wage slave is way better than actual slavery.

G'day Barnfish.



The above short video presentation is perfect to respond to your points about wage slavery not really being slavery. If that isn't enough ...



As to your statements about poverty, well, it sounds like you are describing America ...

More than 46 million Americans live in poverty
www.povertyusa.org/

That's roughly one in every six people.

Of course, the brutality is sanctioned by the government, which a simply search shows ...

www.google.com.au/?gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=-0P9Uq...ce+brutality+youtube

... and incidences like what happened to Rodney King are common occurrences.

All this without even having to touch on the sovereignty/Freeman/admiralty law, issue.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
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