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TOPIC: No-one should ever work! Fuck work!

No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 17 Feb 2014 22:08 #601

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Space Bandit wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
.......
If people are in a position not to require a wage to live then no they are not wage slaves.
Simple innit?

So the rich who can live off trust funds and the poor who can live off benefits are free, the rest of us who work are not free. I find both the idle rich and poor to be boring, vacuous and sad. Their empty lives do nothing for the rest of us and often they are found to be addicts, work shy and of low intelligence.

Benefits could also be viewed as a wage it's just defined differently. Jump through the hoops or no benefits.
It is a reliance on the fact that money must keep coming in to sustain yourself.
I'm not interested in your misanthropic sweeping generalisations of the rich or poor, or those people with addictions. (a type of illness)
It gives a good indication of your character, however.

Do you want to go over why addictions are so prevalent in society or can you simply see that it is another losing argument for the money system straight away?

Yes we have to rely on money coming in to sustain ourself. Is it better for a person to work for the money or get it from a trust fund or benefits?

I make no bones about having more respect for people who work than those who do not. The people I feel the most for are those on jobs which have to topped up by benefits. I also feel for those whose lives have been ruined by poor health including addictions. I think society could do much more for them. I have no respect for the indolent rich and idle poor.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 17 Feb 2014 22:29 #602

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"The people I feel the most for are those on jobs which have to be topped up by benefits"
Cue working tax credit.
Not a good way to defend the position you take.
Shall we discuss wtc in the wider scale of how we are kept in servitude to the profiteers?
Or would you rather we didn't?
"laws are unenforceable if the majority break them."-humanspirit,
"avoid the concept of an ambassador for truth altogether"-gilly.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 17 Feb 2014 22:32 #603

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dubmeup wrote:
"The people I feel the most for are those on jobs which have to be topped up by benefits"
Cue working tax credit.
Not a good way to defend the position you take.
Shall we discuss wtc in the wider scale of how we are kept in servitude to the profiteers?
Or would you rather we didn't?

Discuss it all you want. My preference is higher minimum wages and no need for benefit top ups.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 00:32 #604

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Barnfish wrote:


So, do you accept that work does not equal freedom

Absolutely. It was your implication. :D
and freedom comes in degrees?

Indeed. That was my implication.
Set the controls for the heart of the earth.
Last Edit: 18 Feb 2014 00:34 by Space Bandit.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 00:43 #605

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Barnfish wrote:

Yes we have to rely on money coming in to sustain ourself. Is it better for a person to work for the money or get it from a trust fund or benefits?

In a world where everybody is set against each other to compete most people would take the easy route. I'd probably do both.
Where's this going?
I make no bones about having more respect for people who work than those who do not. The people I feel the most for are those on jobs which have to topped up by benefits. I also feel for those whose lives have been ruined by poor health including addictions. I think society could do much more for them. I have no respect for the indolent rich and idle poor.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion I just don't think making such sweeping judgements is either positive or accurate.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 00:43 #606

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Barnfish wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
"The people I feel the most for are those on jobs which have to be topped up by benefits"
Cue working tax credit.
Not a good way to defend the position you take.
Shall we discuss wtc in the wider scale of how we are kept in servitude to the profiteers?
Or would you rather we didn't?

Discuss it all you want. My preference is higher minimum wages and no need for benefit top ups.

Higher minimum wage would mean more small biz going bust and/or laying off staff and more corporations hoovering it all up.
Again, govt regulation only ever leads to an inevitable conclusion of monopoly.

The only thing that would fix 'capitalism' is for us to have a totally level playing field and then to actually try capitalism.
It doesn't work trying to play monopoly if one of the players starts the game with a billion dollars and the rest with 200.
Thats before even bothering to mention those hiding behind incorporated entities don't have to bother with community chest cards and get out of jail free.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 10:32 #607

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andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
"The people I feel the most for are those on jobs which have to be topped up by benefits"
Cue working tax credit.
Not a good way to defend the position you take.
Shall we discuss wtc in the wider scale of how we are kept in servitude to the profiteers?
Or would you rather we didn't?

Discuss it all you want. My preference is higher minimum wages and no need for benefit top ups.

Higher minimum wage would mean more small biz going bust and/or laying off staff and more corporations hoovering it all up.
Again, govt regulation only ever leads to an inevitable conclusion of monopoly.

The only thing that would fix 'capitalism' is for us to have a totally level playing field and then to actually try capitalism.
It doesn't work trying to play monopoly if one of the players starts the game with a billion dollars and the rest with 200.
Thats before even bothering to mention those hiding behind incorporated entities don't have to bother with community chest cards and get out of jail free.

A higher minimum wage means fewer benefits, which means less tax has to be raised, which means the tax burden on business falls, so countering the increase in wages.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 12:38 #608

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Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
"The people I feel the most for are those on jobs which have to be topped up by benefits"
Cue working tax credit.
Not a good way to defend the position you take.
Shall we discuss wtc in the wider scale of how we are kept in servitude to the profiteers?
Or would you rather we didn't?

Discuss it all you want. My preference is higher minimum wages and no need for benefit top ups.

Higher minimum wage would mean more small biz going bust and/or laying off staff and more corporations hoovering it all up.
Again, govt regulation only ever leads to an inevitable conclusion of monopoly.

The only thing that would fix 'capitalism' is for us to have a totally level playing field and then to actually try capitalism.
It doesn't work trying to play monopoly if one of the players starts the game with a billion dollars and the rest with 200.
Thats before even bothering to mention those hiding behind incorporated entities don't have to bother with community chest cards and get out of jail free.

A higher minimum wage means fewer benefits, which means less tax has to be raised, which means the tax burden on business falls, so countering the increase in wages.

The tax burden is on the PAYE worker not business.
Business has expenses, PAYE workers do not. Corporations don't even make returns of late..quite legally.
Also, revenue has done nothing but need more taxes raised to pay for more services and changes which politicians constantly make to justify their job.
You fail.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 13:23 #609

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Tinker with the money system all you like it will never address the magnitude of the problems that have been highlighted in this thread which see it as a root cause.

It's not even economics because there's fuck all economic about it.
Set the controls for the heart of the earth.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 16:34 #610

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With thunder and heavenly fireworks must one speak to indolent and somnolent senses.

But beauty's voice speaketh gently: it appealeth only to the most awakened souls.

Gently vibrated and laughed unto me to-day my buckler; it was beauty's holy laughing and thrilling.

At you, ye virtuous ones, laughed my beauty to-day. And thus came its voice unto me: "They want—to be paid besides!"

Ye want to be paid besides, ye virtuous ones! Ye want reward for virtue, and heaven for earth, and eternity for your to-day?

And now ye upbraid me for teaching that there is no reward-giver, nor paymaster? And verily, I do not even teach that virtue is its own reward.

Ah! this is my sorrow: into the basis of things have reward and punishment been insinuated—and now even into the basis of your souls, ye virtuous ones!
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 17:45 #611

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Now you're just spamming, spamming without linking. How long do you reckon you'll keep getting away with that?

:clock:
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 19:16 #612

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andyh wrote:
.......
The tax burden is on the PAYE worker not business.
Business has expenses, PAYE workers do not. Corporations don't even make returns of late..quite legally.
Also, revenue has done nothing but need more taxes raised to pay for more services and changes which politicians constantly make to justify their job.
You fail.

No you fail.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 19:25 #613

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Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
.......
The tax burden is on the PAYE worker not business.
Business has expenses, PAYE workers do not. Corporations don't even make returns of late..quite legally.
Also, revenue has done nothing but need more taxes raised to pay for more services and changes which politicians constantly make to justify their job.
You fail.

No you fail.

So you say, however you have yet to explain the cognitive dissonance.
Certainly as a businessman myself I cba paying a minimum wage of the amount that tax credits top it up to, I'm sure as hell the rest won't either. You're expecting some magical money to appear to pay for it lol...

Its typical leftie mentality. The markets not messed with enough lets mess with it some more to 'fix' it.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 20:08 #614

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andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
.......
The tax burden is on the PAYE worker not business.
Business has expenses, PAYE workers do not. Corporations don't even make returns of late..quite legally.
Also, revenue has done nothing but need more taxes raised to pay for more services and changes which politicians constantly make to justify their job.
You fail.

No you fail.

So you say, however you have yet to explain the cognitive dissonance.
Certainly as a businessman myself I cba paying a minimum wage of the amount that tax credits top it up to, I'm sure as hell the rest won't either. You're expecting some magical money to appear to pay for it lol...

Its typical leftie mentality. The markets not messed with enough lets mess with it some more to 'fix' it.

UK business in 2012 paid £43,755 million in corporation tax. Reduce that and up the minimum wage. It can also be done with NI contributions, here

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/09/...sborne-cautions-jobs

"...a policy coming into effect in April that will allow businesses to claim £2,000 a year off their national insurance contributions."

Why should the taxpayer top up staff wages for Tesco, (2012 turnover £72,035 million, profit £3,761 million) ?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 20:24 #615

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And how much do you think the tax credit bill is?

You'd have to abolish business tax altogether just to cover the WTC bill....

£2000 a year will not cover the cost of a single married man as employee with wife and kids, not even close.
Let alone the rest of the workers..

The vast bulk of revenue comes from PAYE workers, £154bn. Corporation tax 39.8bn.

There is reality on the one hand and cloud cuckoo land on the other.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 21:05 #616

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andyh wrote:
And how much do you think the tax credit bill is?

You'd have to abolish business tax altogether just to cover the WTC bill....

£2000 a year will not cover the cost of a single married man as employee with wife and kids, not even close.
Let alone the rest of the workers..

The vast bulk of revenue comes from PAYE workers, £154bn. Corporation tax 39.8bn.

There is reality on the one hand and cloud cuckoo land on the other.

The benefits of a living wage

www.geog.qmul.ac.uk/livingwage/pdf/Livin...eResearchSummary.pdf

"Using data from the questionnaire survey of LW employees and the household modelling of
income, tax and benefits, it was possible to calculate potential savings to Government if all
low-paid Londoners were paid a LW. This could save the Government an estimated £823
million per annum by increasing the tax base and reducing welfare benefit spending. This
was based on an additional £477 million in Income Tax and employees’ National Insurance
payments and a reduction of £346 million in welfare benefits payments and tax credits."
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 21:23 #617

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Zara_T wrote:
With thunder and heavenly fireworks must one speak to indolent and somnolent senses.

But beauty's voice speaketh gently: it appealeth only to the most awakened souls.

Gently vibrated and laughed unto me to-day my buckler; it was beauty's holy laughing and thrilling.

At you, ye virtuous ones, laughed my beauty to-day. And thus came its voice unto me: "They want—to be paid besides!"

Ye want to be paid besides, ye virtuous ones! Ye want reward for virtue, and heaven for earth, and eternity for your to-day?

And now ye upbraid me for teaching that there is no reward-giver, nor paymaster? And verily, I do not even teach that virtue is its own reward.

Ah! this is my sorrow: into the basis of things have reward and punishment been insinuated—and now even into the basis of your souls, ye virtuous ones!

FFS!!!

Enough!.... please? :rokhit:
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 21:29 #618

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UK welfare spending

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/j...fit-welfare-spending

Income support £6.92 billion. Compared to your figure of corporation tax £39.8 billion. Get companies to pay an extra £6.92 billion in wages and in return reduce corporation tax by the same amount. There are estimated to be 5 million workers on less than the living wage*. So that is an extra £1384 per person a year. OK, that is over simplistic, as not all companies pay corporation tax, but I am sure even you can see how it could be done by reducing business taxes and increasing the statutory minimum wage.

*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20104177
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 18 Feb 2014 21:43 #619

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Barnfish wrote:
UK welfare spending

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/j...fit-welfare-spending

Income support £6.92 billion. Compared to your figure of corporation tax £39.8 billion. Get companies to pay an extra £6.92 billion in wages and in return reduce corporation tax by the same amount. There are estimated to be 5 million workers on less than the living wage*. So that is an extra £1384 per person a year. OK, that is over simplistic, as not all companies pay corporation tax, but I am sure even you can see how it could be done by reducing business taxes and increasing the statutory minimum wage.

*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20104177

Income support has nothing to do with working families tax credits, nor is it anything like as much.
Try again.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 19 Feb 2014 18:33 #620

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andyh wrote:
.....
Income support has nothing to do with working families tax credits, nor is it anything like as much.
Try again.

So how much is the total cost of WFTC?

Do you understand the principle of what I am arguing for?
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