andyh wrote:
You are assuming they will the only people charged.
Have you dropped your claim about walking away from LIBOR, now I showed you the fines?
You said the entire corporate tax take, which is not just Corporation Tax. You are also now moving the goal posts to all tax credit and not just working tax credit.
You can call anarchism working together if you want to be deceptive about what it really means.

Barnfish wrote:
You yourself have said that the corporation tax could replace WFTC, I've shown that it can only cover 25% of it.
The goalpost never moved at all and now you're clutching at straws. Child tax credit+working tax credit (replaced working FAMILIES tax credits) is what tops up wages for people in work so...
The point is that corporations do not pay anything like the same amount of tax as PAYE workers do, they are the ones who make up the vast bulk of the tax take, I dunno why you would want to dodge that.
As for anarcho-syndicalism being about violence...lol...you obviously haven't been paying any attention at all to Mondragon.

Your post style is full of shit and WUM, very familiar, a bit like Mike
eg you now mention anarchism instead of anarcho-syndicalism as previously mentioned which is about running a co-op biz with profits recycled between the workers and decisions made in a peaceful direct democratic action quite unlike the present system where you vote for your dictators once every 5 years.

As for LIBOR if more than those 3 fall guys end up behind bars I'll eat my right fucking foot lol.
Let me know when the real owners end up anywhere near a court let alone a jail cell. Those banks are still in business and they are still fucking us all over.

If you want to continue to look like a complete prick then by all means go ahead, everyone can see it.

Who would you charge manipulating LIBOR, those for whom there is actual evidence and a case can be made or any old banker you want to have a go at? I see you have swerved my point that it is three now, but that does not mean that is it.

I see you swerved my rebuttal of your claim the bankers have walked away from LIBOR. Will you acknowledge your mistake there?

I see you continue to jump about between taxes and avoid my point of how just one tax could be used to fund an increase in the minimum wage.

Is Mondragon an anarcho-syndicalist organisation? Show me where a-s is "about running a co-op biz". Or will you swerve that as well?

Your continual use of abuse just helps to further undermine your poor argument.

Barnfish wrote: Who do you think benefits from rigging LIBOR rates? The guys right at the very top, the ones who own the banks who don't work at the banks.
The workers just do as they are told and more to the point, they are the ones who take the fall for it because they are the ones who actually do the work involved.
Thats something you have yet to acknowledge yourself, its a simple little fact of life, they now replace those workers with new ones and off they go again.
Ofc you could use it to 'fund' an increase in minimum wage, so long as every employer gets that money back in his pocket.
Question isn't 'an increase' but total coverage of what they would otherwise get under the benefits system
Now YOU have said its possible its up to YOU to come up with the figures.
Theres a horizon video all about it.

Its on this sites media zone. Its been associated with anarcho-syndicalism for yonks. You can see one such association with Chomsky here- voiceofrussia.com/us/2014_01_10/Chomsky-...ho-Syndicalism-0877/


As evident above, you fully deserve it. The fact you're even bothering to try and defend the McCanns behaviour with leaving little kids alone in a hotel abroad is daft enough, but yet again evident of the same forum nonsense that Mike got up to.

And tbf, andy, you are rather indulging him in it

It's like you found a new pet

dubmeup wrote:

andyh wrote:
So you advocate charging people for whom there is no evidence, as opposed to where there is evidence. You claim the workers are only able to do what they are told to do. That shows you have little knowledge of a major reason why the banks collapsed. Some of the workers were doing things the management did not full understand (such as sub-prime) but were happy to take the cream of the profits for. See Barings and Nick Leeson for what happens when greedy managers fail to properly control what the workers get up to. Leeson made huge profits, the management did not check how he did that, the bank collapsed. Some workers and very senior management incompetence are to blame.

I have already come up with figures as to how much the minimum wage could be boosted by cutting one tax business pays and making business pay such to the workers. I have already evidenced how a living wage benefits the government with tax. All you have done is swerve that and try and make out such would replace other benefits. It would not.

You still swerve my dismantling of your lie about walking away from LIBOR.

Linking me to two videos lasting nearly an hour is not evidence Mondragon is an a-s organisation. It is trying to create a smoke screen. Show me a direct link. Stop swerving.

Your use of abuse, referencing another poster you obviously did not like and now references to completely different threads indicates you have run out of arguments here. Your fail is for all to see.

I don't advocate charging people where there is no evidence Barnfish.

There is 50% of the entire worlds GDP offshore untaxed, it is not being re-distributed.
That is a FACT.

Now you can forget govt, police, messing with taxes etc etc. It is all an epic fail, it was always an epic fail.
This is why I said if you wanted to solve this issue you would have to go to the same lengths that the people went to accrue that kind of wealth. You can forget charging people with anything, its a complete waste of time. The law cannot address an issue that is allowed to happen within the law.

FYI Mondragon is an anarcho-syndicalist organisation, if you can somehow prove it isn't by all means go ahead.
Chomsky is only considered the worlds foremost expert on anarcho-syndicalism, I'm sure you'll fare much better at it lol
Once again, anarcho-syndicalism is about a self employed community of workers who own the means of production with an equal share of the kitty expanded to include their own business infrastructure by and for the workers.
I could for example make comparisons with national-syndicalism but I think it'll fly over your head.

Yes, you could boost some wages with corporate tax reduction, not to the same levels as covered by the benefits system available to families in work ofc because the amount exceeds the entire corp tax take as mentioned before which you have still yet to address...for that matter you have yet to address how the govt will afford the wage increases either with 20% of the working population in the public sector and corporation tax reduction would do the opposite in that instance ffs lol!
Wheres the bloody govt money going to come from for their pay increases?

No matter what you do, you will never solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created it in the first place.
Regulation caused the issue and you want to solve it with yet more regulation. The answer you have given is childishly stupid and something I would expect from a stupid lib-dem MP.
The regulation is never by the people for the people, its by elites for elites.
If ofc you can somehow show how you're going to implement all this without complete economic collapse and some kind of armed revolution I'd love to see it. I'd also love to see how it addresses all that money offshore thats capable of buying out every company in Britain and then some. You can bribe whoever you like with that kind of money and you need never work again, it just sits there and leeches.
You don't need any grand conspiracy theory to see whats going on with 32 trillion in the caymans.

andyh wrote:
Glad to see you just want those who manipulated the rate, for whom there is evidence they did such to be charged. I see you swerved my point about how some workers hoodwinked the stupid and greedy management.

I note you still swerve how I tackled your lie about walking away from LIBOR.

Glad to see you accept certain tax reductions can be used to help boost wages and how that is not intended to replace the benefits system. That was all I was arguing for. You keep creating strawmen about the issue of the entire benefits system.

You are wrong to say "Regulation caused the issue and you want to solve it with yet more regulation." It was deregulation that helped to cause the issue and a return to regulation will solve it. The proof of that is the deregulated part collapsed and needed bailing out, the regulated part did not.

Your appeal to violent revolution over sensible reform is unrealistic, particularly in the UK. Despite the present system's flaws, too many people do well out of it for you to raise a force to overthrow it.

You are still swerving showing how Mondragon is a-s.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

"The determining factor in the creation of the Mondragon system was the arrival in 1941 of a young Catholic priest José María Arizmendiarrieta in Mondragón, a town with a population of 7,000 that had not yet recovered from the Spanish Civil War: poverty, hunger, exile and tension.[2] In 1943, Arizmendiarrieta established a technical college that became a training ground for generations of managers, engineers and skilled labour for local companies, and primarily for the co-operatives.[3]

Before creating the first co-operative, Arizmendiarrieta spent a number of years educating young people about a form of humanism based on solidarity and participation, in harmony with Catholic Social Teaching, and the importance of acquiring the necessary technical knowledge. In 1955, he selected five of these young people to set up the first company of the co-operative and industrial beginning of the Mondragon Corporation."

No mention of the founder being a-s

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Arizmendiarrieta

"Father José María Arizmendiarrieta Madariaga (22 April 1915 – 29 November 1976) was a Catholic priest and founder of the Mondragón cooperative movement in the Basque Country."

What is your plan for all this money in the Caymans?

The govt have 'walked away' from LIBOR by not addressing where all the untaxed money went. Its still there...

Anarcho-syndicalism is related to Mondragon by Chomsky (if you don't like that tough you can take it up with the dictionary).

Sensible reform from where, how?

Plan for caymans? What do you think I am? Some benevolent dictator? :p
You're the one with the big authoritarian plans, not me

BTW, tax reduction isn't going to help the public sector workers, unless the money magically appears btw, not sure where thats coming from if you get rid of corp tax.
It might facilitate 'some' extra pay for workers of companies that are subject to UK corporation tax but nothing more than that, certainly not enough and the govt is left with PAYE workers tax take to make up the gap, so you're at square one again.
The bulk of the money comes from PAYE workers, always has. So its middle class being robbed for the working class is all.
The upper class meanwhile remain unaddressed , probably because they are offshore and because they are not PAYE workers.

Mondragon addressed that you see because they become self employed, they also took up your idea of co-op banks and went a step further by OWNING and CONTROLLING those banks themselves.

Does anarcho-syndicalism exist as some kind of magical solution? NO. Not by a mile because some group of people would have to invest together and stick to a long term plan to implement it. Thus far Mondragon is the only example of its kind because a lot of things have to go right for a long period of time, most people are in life for themselves, the standard capitalist model is about individualism so the odds are stacked very much against anyone else making another Mondragon.

I see only violence as being a solution for people given that the law supports the very situation we are talking about here as do the people who make those laws because they work for the interests of rich lobbyists and they for the most part themselves come from the upper middle class who are groomed for the job.

andyh wrote:
Have you read the threads about bankers killing themselves and LIBOR investigations? Do you know the investigations continue? You are still swerving how LIBOR was not walked away from because of the ongoing fines and investigation.

Chomsky on Mondragon "Take the most advanced case: Mondragon. It’s worker owned, it’s not worker managed, although the management does come from the workforce often, but it’s in a market system and they still exploit workers in South America, and they do things that are harmful to the society as a whole and they have no choice. If you’re in a system where you must make profit in order to survive, you're compelled to ignore negative externalities fixed on others." So no relation to a-s. You have been caught out lying again when you claimed "FYI Mondragon is an anarcho-syndicalist organisation," Its founder, the organisation itself and a critic do not regard it as a-s. Only you do.

I agree tax evasion and avoidance, such as off shore needs to be tackled. My suggestion to reduce a corporate tax to boost minimum wages is not about that issue, no matter how much you try and conflate them.

Your violence solution will result in people dying. You advocate it, will you lead from the front and be prepared to die?

Barnfish wrote:
Mondragon is not a 'perfect' anarcho-syndicalist system. It today remains the best example of anarcho-syndicalism.
As mentioned before it takes much effort and co-operation for it to happen which IMHO cannot ever happen fully because there's too many hurdles to overcome. Just getting a system identical to Mondragon going is a monumental achievement done by people not government.
You have to understand its not a magical cure all but it is a damned site far more effective than what you have managed to describe thus far.
eg putting money in co-op banks without bothering to address how money is SPENT by most people at the bottom end with nothing of size in the way of savings.
That was the whole point of bringing it up

As for LIBOR, I do not see the money it has swindled ever coming back, do you? If so, how?

As for corp tax you still haven't explained how thats going to cover public sector pay rises, thats 20% of the working population in the UK, where is the govt going to get the money from for it if they drop corp tax?

Also where is the extra 150 billion or so approx going to come from to make up the extra tax credits that are still going to be needed to maintain the same income?

As for the violent solution, I simply see this as the only route possible. The people in govt do not work with ethics, they lie and cheat every day, its their job.
We could perhaps start a new political party but given that most people in the UK are completely uneducated in these matters its not going to get very far.
We can dream about for example, making all tax havens illegal, making corporations pay 50% tax with nowhere to hide, drop income tax on employees altogether but you are heading down the road of global one world government for this to happen...not only that but an ethical one world global government because that is the only thing that would stop globalism.
So this goes far far beyond merely single nation politics because these huge corporations are moving money around globally, they are using loopholes that would require co-operation between nation states and some nation states would stand to suffer under such agreements.

Hopefully at this point you can see the sheer futility of the situation, you can speculate about authoritarian measures to sort this problem out but it is authoritarian measures that put is in this very situation, eg central banking, FR banking, infinite reserve banking, futures trading.
All of this happened prior to any 'de-regulation' you can care to mention which happened in collusion with authority.

Have you ever tried starting a bank?
You'll notice that only special businesses can apply and become a 'bank', this is called 'regulation'.

Barnfish wrote: There are a couple of things you need to be clear on. Firstly, just because three scapegoats have been selected with relation to LIBOR does not mean that the system is being cleaned up! As I've said previously, you need to look at the financial section of the forum if you genuinely want to understand what's going on. Or watch this video:



If you don't want to know then don't bother.

Secondly, Chomsky is not critical of Mondragon in a blanket fashion, he has made a criticism. If you read the entire interview from which its taken then you will see cites in as the most prominent example of a co-operative:

www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/30/talking-with-chomsky/
No-one is saying that Mondragon is perfect, it isn't. But it's the best example of a worker getting a fair deal anywhere in the world. The chances of anything else sprouting up anywhere else in the world remotely close to that is infinitesimal.

The economy of Britain is totally, completely, irretrievably fucked unless everything is reset and we start all over again. All that is happening at the moment is the outstanding debt is being serviced. Eventually it will be impossible. Nothing that any government can or will do can change this.

Obviously you're just arguing for the sake of it, so you're not going to take this on board, but you should. It would be in your interest.

Well after all that I'm sure we can now finally agree....
fuck work
fuck money
fucking bollox to it!

Space Bandit wrote:

Yay, Bandit wins!

psketti wrote:
What does he win? A banning?

hugorune wrote:

hugorune wrote:
I gigglesnorted.......