.......

Mondragon is not a 'perfect' anarcho-syndicalist system. It today remains the best example of anarcho-syndicalism.
As mentioned before it takes much effort and co-operation for it to happen which IMHO cannot ever happen fully because there's too many hurdles to overcome. Just getting a system identical to Mondragon going is a monumental achievement done by people not government.
You have to understand its not a magical cure all but it is a damned site far more effective than what you have managed to describe thus far.
eg putting money in co-op banks without bothering to address how money is SPENT by most people at the bottom end with nothing of size in the way of savings.
That was the whole point of bringing it up

As for LIBOR, I do not see the money it has swindled ever coming back, do you? If so, how?

As for corp tax you still haven't explained how thats going to cover public sector pay rises, thats 20% of the working population in the UK, where is the govt going to get the money from for it if they drop corp tax?

Also where is the extra 150 billion or so approx going to come from to make up the extra tax credits that are still going to be needed to maintain the same income?

As for the violent solution, I simply see this as the only route possible. The people in govt do not work with ethics, they lie and cheat every day, its their job.
We could perhaps start a new political party but given that most people in the UK are completely uneducated in these matters its not going to get very far.
We can dream about for example, making all tax havens illegal, making corporations pay 50% tax with nowhere to hide, drop income tax on employees altogether but you are heading down the road of global one world government for this to happen...not only that but an ethical one world global government because that is the only thing that would stop globalism.
So this goes far far beyond merely single nation politics because these huge corporations are moving money around globally, they are using loopholes that would require co-operation between nation states and some nation states would stand to suffer under such agreements.

Hopefully at this point you can see the sheer futility of the situation, you can speculate about authoritarian measures to sort this problem out but it is authoritarian measures that put is in this very situation, eg central banking, FR banking, infinite reserve banking, futures trading.
All of this happened prior to any 'de-regulation' you can care to mention which happened in collusion with authority.

Have you ever tried starting a bank?
You'll notice that only special businesses can apply and become a 'bank', this is called 'regulation'.

.......There are a couple of things you need to be clear on. Firstly, just because three scapegoats have been selected with relation to LIBOR does not mean that the system is being cleaned up! As I've said previously, you need to look at the financial section of the forum if you genuinely want to understand what's going on. Or watch this video:



If you don't want to know then don't bother.

Secondly, Chomsky is not critical of Mondragon in a blanket fashion, he has made a criticism. If you read the entire interview from which its taken then you will see cites in as the most prominent example of a co-operative:

www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/30/talking-with-chomsky/
No-one is saying that Mondragon is perfect, it isn't. But it's the best example of a worker getting a fair deal anywhere in the world. The chances of anything else sprouting up anywhere else in the world remotely close to that is infinitesimal.

The economy of Britain is totally, completely, irretrievably fucked unless everything is reset and we start all over again. All that is happening at the moment is the outstanding debt is being serviced. Eventually it will be impossible. Nothing that any government can or will do can change this.

Obviously you're just arguing for the sake of it, so you're not going to take this on board, but you should. It would be in your interest.

It is odd how you and others support Mondragon but dismiss the likes of building societies and credit unions which are owned by their members and regulated to keep people's money safe and operate in members best interest.

Your tactic of listen to me and learn assumes you are right. I would like to see actual evidence before I judge if you are right or not, not just your bold assertions.

Sigh you are WUM'ing now.

Anarcho-syndicalism is an extended version and ultimate realisation of what Mondragon has started.
Mondragon is the closest example of A.S that exists today as mentioned previously 3 times now.

There have been no 300 trillion dollar fines on the banks that I know of, there have been billion dollar bonuses and bailouts.

You have proposed dropping corp tax previously in this thread and suggested that could release money to pay higher wages, which again for the 3rd time is fine. What you have failed to do is show how that would cover the entire working tax credit package given that the corp tax take was only 49 billion.

Balls in your court, go sort it or STFU.

And yes the fines come off profits which means they come off the tax returns.
Brain dead innit. I'm sure they're oh so concerned about it

As for A.S. its been explained dozens of times, you yourself wanted to see an exact attachment to definition, not me.
I'm quite happy to define Mondragon as anarcho-syndicalism because its near enough.
There is no such thing as pure anarcho-syndicalism because Mondragon has not reached that point yet, why you're fussed about it is beyond me.

You have directly mentioned corporation tax as being used to fund minimum wage increases and only now you have said 'certain tax' whatever the fuck that means. Good luck finding 197 billion from employers instead of employees let alone a govt willing to implement it.
If the money cannot be found from employers then it cannot be directly swapped to fund salary increases as a direct replacement for tax credits can it? Durrhhhh...

The 300 trillion figure is from here- www.economist.com/node/21563743

They've been doing it for decades, govt doesn't have a treasury they do not issue or control monetary value, central bankers do.

It is odd how you and others support Mondragon but dismiss the likes of building societies and credit unions.

andyh wrote:
Show me evidence of how fines are tax deductible.

I am happy to describe Mondragon as a collective as it is not like a-s. You lied and have failed to show it an a-s system.

The certain tax is corporation tax. You have swerved all over the place to avoid dealing with what I have actually argued for.

Regarding the source of the $300 trillion figure. The article states "IT (LIBOR) DETERMINES the interest payments on almost half of flexible-rate mortgages in America and underpins financial contracts worth an estimated $300 trillion worldwide.". It does not say $300 trillion has been made illegally by fixing the LIBOR rate. Why should banks be fined for legally made money when the rates were not fixed?

So far three people have been charged. You can dismiss them as scapegoats, but action is being taken against those who are suspected of being involved.

Sigh you are WUM'ing now.

Anarcho-syndicalism is an extended version and ultimate realisation of what Mondragon has started.
Mondragon is the closest example of A.S that exists today as mentioned previously 3 times now.

There have been no 300 trillion dollar fines on the banks that I know of, there have been billion dollar bonuses and bailouts.

You have proposed dropping corp tax previously in this thread and suggested that could release money to pay higher wages, which again for the 3rd time is fine. What you have failed to do is show how that would cover the entire working tax credit package given that the corp tax take was only 49 billion.

Balls in your court, go sort it or STFU.

The International Workers Association, formed in 1922, is an international anarcho-syndicalist federation of various labour unions from different countries. At its peak, the International Workers Association represented millions of workers and competed directly for the hearts and minds of the working class with social democratic unions and parties.

The Spanish Confederación Nacional del Trabajo played and still plays a major role in the Spanish labour movement. It was also a decisive force in the Spanish Civil War, organising worker militias and facilitating the collectivization of vast sections of the industrial, logistical, and communications infrastructure, principally in Catalonia. Another Spanish anarcho-syndicalist union, the Confederacion General del Trabajo de España, is now one of the largest unions in Spain.

The anarcho-syndicalist orientation of many early American labour unions arguably played an important role in the formation of the American political spectrum, most significantly of the Industrial Workers of the World. The United States is the only industrialized country that does not have a major labour-based political party.[13] This has not always been the case. In 1912, for example, Eugene Debs (a founding member of the IWW) polled 6% of the popular vote as the Socialist Party presidential candidate—a significant portion of the popular vote considering that this was 8 years before the adoption of universal suffrage in the U.S. Some political scientists would, in part, attribute the lack of an American labour party to the single member plurality electoral system, which tends to favour a two-party system. This phenomenon is sometimes referred to as Duverger's law.

Controversially, the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo participated in the Spanish Republican Popular Front government in the Spanish Civil War. In November 1936, four anarchist ministers—Garcia Oliver, Federica Montseny, Joan Peiró, and Juan López—accepted positions in the government. This move was criticised by rank-and-file groups like the Friends of Durruti.

The French CGT leadership under Léon Jouhaux faced similar criticism from its own left-wing, after its close collaboration with Government during the First World War and, later, the Popular Front (France); However, unlike the Spanish anarcho-syndicalists, on both occasions the CGT stopped short of full Cabinet participation.

Ah so WUM'ing is what people here accuse somebody of when they're losing an argument

Ah so WUM'ing is what people here accuse somebody of when they're losing an argument

........

How do you think its tax deductible? LOL!!

The fines come off the profits don't they? They then get taxed on profits.
Simples.
You're not clued up on taxation for businesses are you?

As for Mondragon its farcical to call it a 'lie' that its anarcho-syndicalist when every expert in the book including Chomsky lists it as the best example of anarcho-syndicalism today. If its the best example of it then why not call it anarcho-syndicalist?
The only thing missing is technology to allow for total direct democratic control of every single aspect and having every single employee as a shareholder, they do at Mondragon but not at some of the foreign branches.
It is far more than merely a 'collective', you could use that word to describe a hippy commune ffs lol.

I'll be waiting forever to see where this money is coming from employers to raise wages to replace tax credits btw.

andyh wrote:
Show me how much profit the banks that have been fined are making. Banks are still making either loses or small profits. Then there is the issue of which part of the bank has been fined, since many are split into different sections.

A-s has latched onto Mondragon as it has no successes to its name. Name and quote the supposed experts. It is a cooperative, so where you get this hippy collective idea from I have no idea. Made up strawman like much of your crap.

I'll be waiting forever for your solution of violence, as well as you acknowledging how you lied about walking away from LIBOR and the size of the fines and your misrepresentation of how much the banks fiddle with fixing the rate.

As long as there is 'the man' I don't see me "working" in the legally/capitalist defined sense for 'the man'.