We know we are envious, insecure, respond to rewards and the promises of rewards, (religion).
Even if we left that aside for a minute, what about those other enquiries?

Barnfish wrote:
G'day Barnfish.

Do you have a birth certificate?

You know, with your name on it.

Did you choose the name?

Or is it a "given" name?

Not yours huh, you were 'branded' with it.

Can you have it changed at any moment of your choosing, or are you stuck with it unless you 'apply' (read beg) for permission to change it?

So, you don't even have your own name/label, you have a slaves name, a 'given' name ... but you have a 'wage'.

Now, it appears that you are stating that your points have no emphasis on their own and require "hyperbole" to provide the emphasis that they lack. Which actually shows that you recognise the lack of emphasis of your points. Thank you for admitting to that.

Space Bandit wrote:
Greed isn't necessary now, some people get a kick out of controlling others. That as you said is probably a form of mental illness. It won't magically disappear. Have it managed by technology? Have it rationed you mean. Not going to go down well with these people.
Space Bandit wrote:
I can see that people aren't the slightest bit bothered about law. It doesn't stop them committing any kind of crime. It never will.
Space Bandit wrote:
Not really. Its just a nice fluffy idea. Completely impractical.
Space Bandit wrote:
Yes
Space Bandit wrote:
No.
Space Bandit wrote:
The only way we could live without it, is in a world without any form of trade where everything we get is rationed and distributed automatically. Thats a terrible suggestion. The only thing it will lead to is violence and theft. Control of resources. There will never EVER be a world without trade. EVER.


Space Bandit wrote:
Money is not rationing no, because there are no limits on how much you may try to earn. As for my suggestion not taking in to account putting power in to the wrong hands... Now I KNOW you haven't been paying attention. I'm suggesting we elect our bankers, decision is to be made by an elected board and we make them accountable. You can't force people to share. What if you aren't well liked? You'll get told to get fucked.
Space Bandit wrote:

Space Bandit wrote:
What has happened is that I've understood the wider implications of what such a system would mean. We cannot exist in a world without trade. We just can't. We'll go back to the stone age. People will not work (we've established work is still needed remember?) for nothing in return, and you can't force them to share, yet I'm being called authoritarian. I've denied plenty of ill thought out ideas in this thread yes. Show me something that will work.

I believe it does matter. It matters that people KNOW what the problems really are. It matters that they know which solutions will not work.

feather wrote:
I think it's more about revolutionising the idea of what work is and what it achieves.

Space Bandit wrote: but once that idea has been redefined through revolutionary thinking who is still having to go do the graft while others indulge in philosophising?

isn't work just the means by which we sustain ourselves? whether that be by foraging, fishing or finance.

the issue with work that people seem to have tends to either be that it is not a kind of work they find satisfying or they do not feel sufficiently remunerated for their labour, particularly when compared to others. That others receive more of the benefits of their labour than they do.

thoreau wrote: Perhaps at it's most very superficial level but I would contend it is much more.
To many it is a sense of contribution and value in relation to their communities and beyond.

feather wrote:
i would agree with that.

thoreau wrote: I wouldn't. It's supposed to say contend not content.

I AM ALL I AM wrote:
I am a slave because my parents chose my name

Hyperbole means I have no emphasis

feather wrote:
I noticed that but its sunday - and I am always making mistakes

feather wrote:
Some people fit that bill, some don't.
I see that as a reaction to environment rather than by default.

feather wrote:
What about value of work to self? Self realisation?
For example, some people might find being a car mechanic as fun and interesting but because it doesn't pay well enough they train to do something they don't particularly enjoy but financial circumstances dictate it.
The job itself may or may not be of use to communities.

andyh wrote: Of course that is yet another motivator.
Tbf I did caveat by saying "To many..." I would also argue that many in the arts would also fall into your category. It would be of secondary importance, if any at all, whether someone else got something from their work.

feather wrote:
Whats at question here IMHO its the direction the monetary system gives to humanity, not if trade is done, trade is always done.
Money is meant to be a facilitator of trade but it has now become a hinderance because it has become hoarded and the market cornered.
This was inevitable not because of lack of regulation but directly due to regulation. I know thats hard for people to get their heads around but its the inevitable result of government that has lead to monopoly because money lobbies government. You cannot legislate for that because you are expecting people in authority to be above the greed that the 'hidden hand' expects.

Drug companies are given sole rights to produce and sell drugs for example, making shitloads of money and more importantly DIRECTING the path of drug research, not to cure disease but symptoms and ensure certain plants and drugs are 'illegal'.

We can see it in patent law with monsanto again in collusion with government.

The scale of the problem is massive and frankly this co-op bank lark is laughable given half the entire global gdp is in offshore accounts, you cannot expect govt to address a problem which would mean biting off their own noses. You can write to your mp from now til doomsday he'll tell you to go f*ck yourself.

Firstly.
I'll admit I did not bother to read through the 500+ posts in this thread and I put my hands up now and say I have no intention of doubling back and doing that now.

I made my post based upon the bold statement of the OP.

Monetary systems are an artifice which can be controlled or let rampage by legislation.
The problem imo is not even currency. It's the loss of control of societies legislative bodies which enables those who deal in or accrue vast sums of wealth, (in whatever commodity that may be measured), to create pain, suffering, poverty, misery and death upon others and walk away with impunity and even, respect. *spits*.

The cash is only a tangible symptom, it's not the disease.

I do agree that cash is but a symptom of our real malaise. But it is intrinsic to that malaise. It perpetuates a vast amount of it by amplifying certain negative traits that have been allowed/encouraged to became endemic in humanity. To me, that isn't a matter of question. It's self evident.

This particular symptom is such a problem that it feeds back into the disease and makes it more virulent. Our education systems and media are fully aligned with it and preach it as an absolute. It is little wonder that so few sit there and go, hang on, this 'symptom' is just an idea. It is not a universal law. We are presented with cash as a fait accomplit.

feather wrote:
If 97% of all types of work could be eliminated by technology or the fact that money didn't exist that wouldn't leave much to do.
I'm pretty certain those roles would be filled voluntarily by people who are happy to see that they are helping a society to tick over... in essence, it could be viewed as quintessential to survival. Certain people see that as wrong or immoral that some people have it within themselves to give without receiving & try to tarnish it as slavery for some reason rather than note it as a positive human trait. Maybe they should go talking to people who volunteer for charity about that. And let's not forget examples of where work is done through necessity rather than reward in circumstances such as wars where nurses work for the sake of helping the wounded.

Barnfish wrote:
It's actually more about the registering of slaves & how it bears great similarity to the registering of chattel slaves.

SilvaRizla wrote:
We've talked about some of the known causes for greed so clearly a society based on abundance of good living standards and equality would produce better people. That is a fact of nature..... which is backed up by the fact that income can be directly linked to life expectancy. So since you outright propose a system of money as the only common sense option you are actually placing that as higher in importance than life itself.
Madness!

Oh, but don't worry, you can earn as much as you want can't you?

Everything is already rationed. Resources are finite. (but space is deep.)

Tell me... these elite control freaks who it aint gonna go down well with.... what do they have to be able to control people now?
Would it be money? Would it be legal titles?
You seem to think these people would be running around snaffling up bags of coal & food and hoarding them when in all likelihood they'd be absolutely crapping themselves weary of every lamp post.


Of course laws prevent people doing things. The whole foundation of the free market is private property & money. So people have to respect theft laws. Or are you saying now that in a world with all these millions of greedy people that they just simply respect the fact that it's private property and don't steal? People obey laws rightly or wrongly through the fear of punishment.... to say that isn't the case is a total fallacy. Obviously some people do break them though but if they didn't there'd be no such thing as crime.

& what is crime so often the result of?
People not having enough. People who live in poor environments. People who feel undervalued and disrespected due to their social status.

& money.
Space Bandit wrote:
Impractical?

A system that would fulfill all basic human needs at a minimum is impractical? Fuck me but

But back in reality it's all very well you saying "it won't work" because fortunately that's not the way things need to be measured to assess their validity.
You see what scientists get up to is testing theories & stuff like that and then telling people whether it would work or not. & even then they might not be right.

So if for example a fully working city that was built this way was designed do you think it would be fairly popular to live in or not?
Or will everybody still be fixated with the game of pass the parcel?
Space Bandit wrote:


Whoa whoa whoa....
It's a terrible suggestion based on what? No proof of concept.
This idea you have that this is the only way society can be structured is bordering on insanity. When you put it into perspective and think that we are possibly the only form of life in the universe that does this and the result is clearly that it doesn't work for the majority but still carry on doing it.
Madness!


Space Bandit wrote:
So it's possible for somebody to have all of it?

Again

Are jobs not rationed? Are there a finite amount of hours in day? Is it possible to just get a job paying the amount you want?
ffs man!

Yes I've seen your suggestion of more authoritarians & we know where that goes.
Boring, pretty worrying.... & doesn't go anywhere near addressing negative human conditions which we know to be endemic in all monetary paradigms which perpetuate negative human traits.
Essentially short lived or cyclic without ever addressing core issues.

There are 2 almost divergent core issues here;
Money
and
the negative traits which money fosters

It's pointless not considering the latter when attempting to address the former as it's a paradox which self perpetuates.

Such a "futuristic" society should also not permit the abuse of 'loners' through restriction (punishment) simply because they are different otherwise that would re-enable the cycle of abuse of the system which is quintessential to survival.
It's a bugger looking at the cause rather than addressing the symptoms & just profiting out of it.

There is no way you can tell me that a monetary system is better able to deal with these problems better now....